{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
6/25/2021 4:22:26 PM
35
Agreed. Its the wrong approach.
The actual solution is very simple. Reduce the primary weapon TTK from 0.85 secs down to 0.6 (which was the original TTK for vanilla D1.
1. No, it won't make the game in to CoD. CoD TTKs are down near the 0.25 sec range.
2. It would give the game a primary meta, because it will FINALLY allow primary weapon users to stand their ground and fight of shotgun rushers and other OVER-aggressive use of OHK weapons.
3. It would reduce the need for team shooting. Because it would allow well-executed flanks to take out opponents before they could run away to safety or have a team mate rotate over and intervene.
Opening up the game.....letting it **breathe**....and allowing for a wider variety of play styles. So the game doesn't get so stale so quickly.
English
-
[quote]Agreed. Its the wrong approach. The actual solution is very simple. Reduce the primary weapon TTK from 0.85 secs down to 0.6 (which was the original TTK for vanilla D1. 1. No, it won't make the game in to CoD. CoD TTKs are down near the 0.25 sec range. 2. It would give the game a primary meta, because it will FINALLY allow primary weapon users to stand their ground and fight of shotgun rushers and other OVER-aggressive use of OHK weapons. 3. It would reduce the need for team shooting. Because it would allow well-executed flanks to take out opponents before they could run away to safety or have a team mate rotate over and intervene. Opening up the game.....letting it **breathe**....and allowing for a wider variety of play styles. So the game doesn't get so stale so quickly.[/quote] The vast majority of weapons share the exact same ttk as their D1 counterparts… Raising primary ttk would be incredibly stupid.
-
Not necessarily, because then special weapons wouldnt really have a purpose in pvp. Why use a shotgun when I can just spray and wipe somebody who I barely see? Why use a sniper when I can cross map with a scout that kills in only like 2-3 shots. On paper, faster primary ttk would be the solution, but l foresee a situation where they ruin the actual variety of the game. Especially since handcannons would only need 2 shots to kill somebody, vs an auto needing like 4-5+, on top of the advantages they already have. This game would drop like a bowling ball for pvp if they did that.
-
Smh. This game really has damaged people’s understanding of what is the proper role of specialized weapons. The role of a shotgun isn’t to give you a weapon where you can just run at people and one shot them over open ground and use your face as a shield. The role is to give you an advantage in tight spaces and in close combat. [b]It is supposed to give you an advantage in that limited situation, and be a liability elsewhere.[/b] The role of a sniper is be a OHK battle rifle that you March into mid-range engagements or that you slug it out at long range with scout (battle) rifles. The role of a sniper is to be a long range [b]ambush[/b] weapon. Where you punish people for moving about the map carelessly and where you deny people access to certain zones and lanes of movement. The reason why people exprience snipers and shotguns as oppressive in this game is because the underpowered primaries combined with the speed of player movement has allied these weapons to escape their proper roles. Because there is no disadvantage to being caught with one outside of its optimal range. So they’ve become the games primary weapons….and the only way to get people to stop using them is to deprive them of ammo.
-
You aren't really fixing the issue that special weapons bring to the table by making primaries more powerful. Yes it puts a greater emphasis on said primaries, but there would literally be no reason to use special weapons if primaries killed so fast and easily that both the ranged weapons and the close range weapons melted. Special should serve as you said, but no game has ever properly designed those weapon types to function like that. Even halo with its descope snipers still has people bum rushing players with it because of how potent they are. The shotguns on the other hand, are so vastly weak compared to even the most basic primary weapons that you are better off not even using one because its range and utility are so limited. Even cod has to pretty much give shotguns d1 felwinter range and snipers the one tap body treatment just to make them viable in any capacity. Not to mention you also aren't factoring in how lethality like that gives extremely low potential for proper tuning. The less bullets you have to use to kill someone, the harder balancing will be. How do you balance scout rifles 2 tapping? How do you balance pulse rifles basically one bursting? You dont and you can't because their fire rate and damage deliverance simply do not work like that. You'd have to completely rebalance the rpm of every single weapon in the game to get it around that ttk, which isnt even worth the effort. On autos and smgs it's easy as shit, but you quite literally can't do it for single fire weapons. Go ahead, show me how you make 120s with a permanent 2 tap balanced, or a rapid fire scout balanced. Autos will just get the shaft even harder dude. Theres so much more to balancing primaries than simply reducing their ttk and theres no real solution that let's both primary and special weapons exist in destiny in any similar capacity. Unless you either cripple special weapon ammo, or continue to nerf them. They still need to rebalance auto rifles and smgs to be a more lethal weapon type so that handcannons and side arms arent just shitting on them 24/7. Man this was long, sorry kelly.
-
Yes I am fixing it, because special weapons aren’t broken….they are simply out of balance. They are out of balance because in Halo every OHK weapon was a [b]power-up[/b] that you acquired, and that you had limited resources for. Bungie never had to learn how to balance them as a continuous presence (and they still don’t know how to do it correctly). The problem is that the game’s primaries are underpowered relative to player movement speed. Which creates two problems: 1. People team shooting, spam special weapons and spam abilities because individual primary weapons cannot keep up with the speed of play. 2. Primaries (unless you are team shooting) lack the killing power to impose any range-related disadvantages to being caught out of a OHK weapons optimal range. IOW, if I’m caught at mid-range with a shotgun? I just rush you. Because you can’t stand your ground and kill me with that primary before I can close the gap and one-bang you. If it’s long range? I just run for cover. You can’t kill me before I can escape. Same with a sniper. I either hip-fire, the swap to a hand cannon and kill you faster than most primaries…or I simply run away. This is why nerfs solve nothing, and starving them of ammo is just a band-aid. [b]Until primaries are powerful enough to make it painful for shotgunners or snipers to be caught out of their optimal ranges with that OHK weapon in their hand? YOU WONT FIX THE PROBLEM.[/b]
-
No you really aren't. You are just moving the issues to the primaries themselves which is the point I was trying to make. If you make primaries so lethal that you can melt somebody far away or close before they even have any real opportunity to react you are just going to recreate the same issue. Who cares if a shotgun can insta kill you at 8 meters when my smg can melt you in .40 of a second at 16+? Why use a sniper that gets shaken like theres an earthquake just to land the single headshot I need when I can just smash the trigger with my scout and blow you out of the water with barely any time to react. You aren't recognizing that the solution you have creates an issue as it "fixes" another. Now you have primaries so lethal that only high paced movement that not every subclass has access to, mandatory. You make having abilities that need to be lethal enough to warrant their cooldowns so they aren't worthless. Supers are going to get thrashed and turn into a waste of energy to use unless they buff them. Theres so much you are overlooking it's not even funny. And you keep ignoring the point I try to bring up as well, how do you balance primaries that only kill in 3-4 shots at their current ttk? You don't because you almost literally can't. What you want is a pipe dream, where everything can happily sit at around that ttk, but it cant happen and bungie should know better than trying to do that because it's a waste of resources. Wanting primaries to be more lethal so that special isnt a pain in the ass is obviously what people at the top of the bracket are gonna whine about, but then as soon as they get that it's going to make the problem even worse. It's so obvious and people are oblivious to it. Yes what you are saying absolutely makes sense, but it just turns the issue on its head. Now everything else that isn't exactly what's causing our issues now...worthless. So top tree dawnblade becomes what every other class will need to be viable, rather than tuning a single subclass so it isn't racing across the map as fast as it wants, or crippling special ammo so that it actually has to be used sparingly instead of like a primary. Abilities need to have their cooldowns adjusted, but only on the ones that are an actual legitimate issue (you can't be telling me that celestial fire deserves the same cooldown as the shitty bottom tree dawnblade melee are you bungie). Proper tuning is what this game needs, not more mindless band aid solutions that just move the issue somewhere else. Yes nerfs do that too, but buffs do as well.
-
The issue IS the primaries. Stop thinking Halo. Every other shooter that has players that move fast, unpredictably and has a balanced sandbox have faster killing primaries. Even the devs understand that movement and primary killing power are out of balance. Only they want to fix the problem (as always) by trying to slow the game down instead of speeding up the TTK. You will never fix this game any other way . Bungie has tried—and failed—-for 6 years to try to balance this game around a TTK of 0.8-0.85 secs. It can’t be done, because someone with a primary isn’t a threat that someone armed with a special has to respect.
-
I just use halo as an example because it's the shooter I'm most acquainted with. Yes faster paced shooters have faster ttk, but they also have no semblance of balance for just about any weapon. The fast firing weapons in cod go brrr. The precision weapons go awwww. In destiny, the precisions weapons will go brrrr even more and the fast firing weapons will go awww...er. Because they were never tuned to work outside of those ttks and so they will have to rework every single weapon from the ground up to function around that ttk. I've spent enough time trying to adjust weapons on paper to be met with heavy restriction because it's not as easy as simply giving them damage. That's why I dont think it will go beyond just testing it out. Momentum control is basically what we will get after that, and I find it to be insanely boring.
-
Bearbeitet von kellygreen45: 6/26/2021 8:27:34 PMThat is the price you pay for speed. You had those intricate gunfights in Halo because Spartans move slowly. Games of speed are about movement and positioning. Not precision shooting. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The fact that NO ONE has been able to do what Bungie is trying to do with Destiny…and Bungie can’t do it either…is proof that it really can’t be done.
-
Destiny IS its whole own beast to begin with.
-
Which has led to six years of failure. Bungie’s biggest s failures always seem to start with, “The riles other game devs have to follow dont apply to us.” Yeah. They do.
-
Yet 120s and their 1.0 TTKs rule…
-
Because they allow peek-and-shoot tactics, and don’t suffer the movement-based reduction of accuracy that other weapons face.
-
Yep that’s why they are [i][u]top primary.[/u][/i] But regardless of the meta we’ve had even in this 1.0 second meta shotguns have and do take a back seat… Shotguns and specials in general cannot contest in this meta. They are purely a weapon used to finish players off. They aren’t dominant in any other way.
-
Nope not because Bungie limits their ammo, and removed some of the worst maps from the game. As well as nerfing cryoclasm. Sweeping the problem under the rug isn’t the same as [i]fixing[/i] the problem.
-
-
The times people fear are thorn/TLW days where it was two tapping that’s what people think will happen
-
Bearbeitet von kellygreen45: 6/25/2021 9:52:04 PMTLW was bugged and could kill in about 0.5 sec. Thorn killed through the DoT mechanic. So, like stasis, you were left helpless….while the person who shot you simply ran away. The other problem with Thorn is you had people who just refused to disengage. They tried to either fight through it… or the just decided (like stasis) that it was an illegitimate play mechanic so the complained until Bungie eventually just broke the weapon. Once you could ignore the burn and fight through it, all the complaints about Thorn-kills-too-fast? Magically went away.
-
Thissssssss. It is literally common sense in a nutshell and I dont understand how people who code cant understand this logic.!
-
Across the board primary ttk buff is about as non common sense as it gets. Its not something they can just do like they just turn a knob.
-
I know but they can definitely do something complexed. I mean look at how Stasis got shipped. Overtuned and overpowered in one but we cannot get QOL updates to benefit the game alongside better map design. I am shook as in how they handle balance and priorities in this game.
-
Bearbeitet von A_mo: 6/26/2021 3:52:50 PMSomething like that is just way more complex than we could possibly understand. Just think about it even from our level of what we can see. You have weapons shooting with different ROF that work in all kinds of different ways and then you want to have kind of a "target ttk" that you want to shoehorn a lot of them into. Then when you do that a million and one things can result, some of them might be good, some of them might be bad, but the thing with this game is a lot of the time the bad has to have someone to put the blame on. So its not really the first option you'd necessarily wan to take. Especially at this point where there are more weapons that are viable than there ever have been. Weapons need to be tuned separately rather than just having a blanket ttk target. Then there's also the thing where, if this game is going to become more actually competitive, its going to have to stop with the false equivalencies that go against common sense widely established basic principles that pretty much every fps abides by. This whole thing, with all due respect about the "mindskills" as needing to be as privileged as or more privileged than thumbskills is totally just not a good idea to try to continue with. Mindskills in an fps are basically presupposed. And in some scenarios you'll have lower skilled players that will basically be saying, "I entered into this encounter and this person killed me because I'm smarter than them." Stuff like that just doesn't mix with what is at its foundation still an fps in PvP. Tbh, it should be pretty obvious why an across the board ttk decrease is not the way to go. Even if you just look at the way a lot of the weapons work. With some pulses are they supposed to kill in 1 and half or two bursts now? It honestly doesn't make all that much sense.
-
Honestly I feel Bungie makes Destiny complex with how they handle nerfs and buffs. Are we closer to balance? Yes and no. I feel if Crucible Labs was back in the game and was ONLY use to test our sandbox changes ie no stats just weapon usage versus different opponents, then alot of the issues they make changes to wouldnt have happen. Dunemarcher and Vesper of Radius are too main examples that come to mind. You have Vesper of Radius(No matter how many times I tried) would never work with light subclasses due to how poorly the activation and range is but the minute we received Stasis it became usable. Dunemarchers didnt even need a buff and yet they gave it one for no reason at all. I mean look at how many exotics we have in the game currently that need a major change or adjustment that has been overlooked for so long. I mean another example would be Last Word, how many times has this weapon been touched since they brought it from D1? It is now ridiculous because the change was truly unnecessary when you have several weapon exotics that dont even see the light of day. Using TTK as a reference to fix the game in terms of balance, I agree, is the last thing we need. I feel the perks, maps and archetype each weapon plays in determines how well a weapon can perform alongside the knowledge the player has regarding the maps and radar. I play with non META loadouts no matter the playstyle, whether I go positive or not and I have come to realize what I mentioned plays heavily of the overcome of matches. There is just too many issues within the game for us to constantly change METAs especially when we have underwhelming, underused and forgotten weapons, exotics, perks and subclasses. Maps play a major factor in this role as well alongside the lobby balancing and matchmaking that is poorly managed.
-
This is an awesome take. Forgive me if I'm still getting over a youtube video I watched last night that was such a horrific take on the state of PvP that I woke up thinking about how horrible it was. So if I come off a little snippy just know I'm not trying to. [quote]There is just too many issues within the game for us to constantly change METAs especially when we have underwhelming, underused and forgotten weapons, exotics, perks and subclasses. Maps play a major factor in this role as well alongside the lobby balancing and matchmaking that is poorly managed.[/quote] I totally agree with this. And in a lot of ways its a testament to where the game is now vs. where it was for a little while. I think that now there can be what I guess you would call a "softer meta" but still with the ability for people to be able to define and really develop and practice a personal playstyle. There's a lot of stuff in this game at this point that is more a matter of opinion, and again that's another testament to how far the game has come. I don't have a problem with 120s being the "soft meta" for instance, as long as I'm still able to be reasonably effective with what I like. And the maps. I honestly think they are more than able to handle that. With Destiny there's always going to be this thing where what guardians can do can kind of outgrow the rest of the game. Its something that we all like in one way or another. But I think now they will be better able to account for that growth. And that's just a matter of experience and the fact that PvP in this game is always going to be kind of a learning process. That's actually one of its strengths imo and something that when done right sets Destiny apart from other PvPs.
-
What YT video was it? I need to see it so I can see their take. Most YTubers dont see things from the perspective they claim. To me you got to live the mindset and scenarios you claim to be the issue because if you adjust to the issue by joining it then you can no longer speak on the matter. A poor person cant tell a rich person how to manage money even if they became rich, you could only show the poor people how to and where to start.
