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10/23/2020 5:35:50 AM
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Shotguns weren't addressed because they shouldn't have been.
Lately their use and effectiveness has been on par with or below that of snipers.
If you get killed by a shotgun, it is your fault. The same can't be said about a sniper. You can do everything right and they can just take your head off through flinch at potentially any range.
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[quote]Shotguns weren't addressed because they shouldn't have been. Lately their use and effectiveness has been on par with or below that of snipers. If you get killed by a shotgun, it is your fault. The same can't be said about a sniper. You can do everything right and they can just take your head off through flinch at potentially any range.[/quote] They are literally the most used special weapon by an order of magnitude, because they dont require aim. Snipers dont need much aim either, so im glad their nerfed too:)
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Bearbeitet von Wes: 10/23/2020 10:41:37 PM2 snipers have more usage than the 4 most used shotguns together. The stats are readily available if you go look. Edit: Forgot to mention that's for competitive modes.
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[quote]2 snipers have more usage than the 4 most used shotguns together. The stats are readily available if you go look. Edit: Forgot to mention that's for competitive modes.[/quote] Stop cherry picking. I was literally the first player in the world to get a 200 comp streak https://i.imgur.com/xISBXQF.jpg This was a few weeks ago. Literally #1 in Survival. https://i.imgur.com/Cqmc0kG.jpg I was #2 on PSN in Destiny 1 https://destinytracker.com/destiny/leaderboards/ps/sitescore?grouped=true Went on a 500+ win streak im season of Arrivals https://i.imgur.com/HF0Qd7c.jpg I also have a rumble KD of 4.8 and a win ratio of 98% Trials KD of 2.3 and win ratio of 94% https://destinytracker.com/d2/profile/psn/Rappo000 What more do you want lmao I got to make shax really proud today, got a 50 kill streak on meltdown using a sniper and a side arm with no heavy kills and only 4 super kills. Feels good man https://youtu.be/ZDra1vX0Uhs 26 sniper kills in a single match. My personal best.
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From April until October while the comp population was highest, snipers accounted for twice the amount of kills as shotguns.
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[quote]From April until October while the comp population was highest, snipers accounted for twice the amount of kills as shotguns.[/quote] Cherry picked stats. Look at the overall numbers. Shorgun crutch. Cant aim 😬
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Overall numbers include different movement capabilities from PC to console, different playlists, and 6v6 and 3v3 game mods. All of which have different environments that favor different weapons. So no. Overall numbers is maybe 30% of the story. Certainly not the full picture. You can't ignore a 7 month long trend because it disagrees with your narrative.
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[quote]Overall numbers include different movement capabilities from PC to console, different playlists, and 6v6 and 3v3 game mods. All of which have different environments that favor different weapons. So no. Overall numbers is maybe 30% of the story. Certainly not the full picture. You can't ignore a 7 month long trend because it disagrees with your narrative.[/quote] Noooope. Looks right now, shotguns still used twice as often. Let me guess, you use a shotgun 😏
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You're still ignoring the 7 months trend... And no. When I do play, I've been focusing on my primary shot because I find it to be more fun. A three tap against some sweaty Flawless with a shotgun and a six stack is the most satisfying thing this game has to offer.
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[quote]You're still ignoring the 7 months trend... And no. When I do play, I've been focusing on my primary shot because I find it to be more fun. A three tap against some sweaty Flawless with a shotgun and a six stack is the most satisfying thing this game has to offer.[/quote] Glad to hear you're not a shotgun crutch
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I agree, shotguns are actually in a really good spot in my opinion. Once snipers are tuned a bit, I honestly feel like fusion rifles could be buffed a bit and then all of the special weapons would be a great place. The problem with fusion rifles is that because of their intended range, they are very tricky to balance. They are either op, or easily counted by playing cover. There really isn't a lot of middle ground due to the nature of the weapon type. All things equal, I'd rather fusions be on the weaker end.
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Agreed. I wish there was some sort of fusion adjustment, excluding Bastion, the it is [i]really[/i] easy to take fusions from weak to straight up oppressive.
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Yeah. I think the main pain point right now is that the faster charging fusions are just super inconsistent. That seems like a legitimate issue but I don't know how to address it without making them nuts. Maybe a really limited effective range and give them a set projectile pattern to make them consistently one shot within that range? That would be something to consider
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Definitely a good option. I'm normally against range caps, but fusions need one. There was a time where a firmly planted Erectile could get 40+ meter kills consistently. That was insane.
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On par with the OTHER most overused weapon, Snipers (now nerfed - effectiveness of course to be determined). Hardly support for Shotgun's statistical overuse.
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Bearbeitet von Wes: 10/23/2020 4:29:53 PMOr below. Snipers have more use and kills overall than shotguns in competitive game modes by a significant margin. And this is at the end of the season as numbers have started to diminish. Near the middle of the season, shotguns sat almost right in the middle between snipers and fusions, with snipers significantly above shotguns. This held constant until early October. Edit: Stats from October 5th: Fusions: 8.14% of kills Shotguns: 8.18% of kills Snipers: 14.94% of kills After that there were steep decreases in sniper use and steep increases in shotgun use without any sandbox update to cause that. Only explanations are everyone just simultaneously decided to put the snipers away (unlikely) or the population has changed significantly since then, which is true. Even then, sniper use and shotgun use has evened out as a result. The fact that there has been that drastic of a change and shotguns are only now on par with snipers is a red flag. Shotguns would have overtaken them if they're half as OP as people claim them to be.
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Garbage, 'significant margin' it's within one percent. I've appended today's actual facts. Sniper legendaries 12% used and kill share. Shotgun legendaries 11% used and kill-share. Fusion legendaries 0.4 used 0.6 kill-share. L.Fusions are destroyed, no doubt about that. Snipers and Shotguns are equally overuse. Only Snipers were addressed, how successful a nerf of course remains to be seen. Shotguns OVERUSE, not mentioned, not addressed.
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Look at my numbers in my edit. My numbers are from the middle of the season and went on from the release of the season until early October. Your numbers are from a sudden shift in weapon usage that can only be explained from a drop in the population. Nothing happened on October 8th to warrant a 5-6% jump in shotgun kills. So if you're looking at the statistics, the trends say when the population was higher snipers had 6% more kills than shotguns for months straight. They've been even for 2-3 weeks when the population was low. My numbers are statistically more meaningful.
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Nope your figures are inaccurate - you've included exotics, outliers to the problems of the archetypes. The EXACT figures broken down in detail in my post are typical, are accurate - I've posted them regularly enough -, are current. 12% Sniper share 11% Shotgun share 0.6% Fusion share Facts. A big problem for balance.
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Ignore my previous post. Looking at your original post now. And those numbers are greatly different than they were two weeks ago. Explain the 5-6% increase in shotgun usage that occurred overnight and then come back and say your numbers are meaningful. Until that overnight jump can be explained in a way not attributed to a lower PvP population, those numbers aren't as meaningful as onces pulled from the middle of the season. Just how it works. [i]Something[/i] drove that change, and the only realistic explanation is PvP population change.
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Both Destiny Tracker and guardian.gg disagree with you. You getting these from competitive PvP? You ignoring exotics and outliers? Exactly what are you doing to arrive at these figures?
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No, they're the EXACT figures from Destinytracker at the time stated at the criteria stated, and for legendaries as stated. They're the current, accurate figures, differing very little from multiple previous amounts. They're certainly representative enough from multiple previous checks to indicate a huge archetype diversity problem. As if this wasn't already abundantly clear by experience. Fusions were killed, Sniper and Shotgun are overused to exclusion.
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Bearbeitet von Wes: 10/24/2020 5:09:54 PMAaand you're ignoring exotics to exaggerate your narrative. Indicated by Bastion having 3x more usage and kills than what you say all of fusions do. Bastion is a fusion. You can't ignore it because it has a yellow box. Just because there aren't many good exotic shotguns doesn't mean you can ignore the good exotic fusions. And you're taking figures from the end of the season while there is a lower population than from the beginning or middle, while it is at the highest. You're also taking numbers across all platforms, when the movement capabilities are entirely different between PC and console, resulting in different weapon usage. Guardian.gg breaks it down by platform. For console at the end of the season in comp: Snipers: 13.48% of kills Shotguns: 12.88% of kills Fusions: 6.93% of kills This trend has been observed for only 3 weeks. This 3 week trend agrees with you, but is subject to population size. For console closer to the middle of the season (when comp population was higher): Snipers: 15.75% of kills Fusions: 8.37% of kills Shotguns: 8.03% of kills This trend held from April until October, with shotguns and fusions overtaking one another going back and forth until finally shotguns had 0.04% more kills than fusions in early October. This trend disagrees with you, is not subject to population size, and went on for months. If you're gonna use statistical trends in your arguement, you gotta look at them all. Discredit this trend and then we'll talk. Edit: I can see why you'd eliminate exotics if you're doing legendaries only. Apples to apples. But, Bastion alone doesn't account for the second trend I stated. If it did that would mean it single handedly bridged that gap in the mod-season and then every just stopped using it in all playlsits after. It would have a much more significant presence in other playlists. And that just isn't true.
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This is desperately reaching. These are the figures as stated, for abundantly obvious reasons. No selectivity was given - no exotics in any category. The figure for Shotgun - the focus of this topic - would be EVEN WORSE with them. Of course exotics aren't remotely representative of the archetypes. They are special case weapons by definition, with opportunity cost if their own - hence "Exotics". They have unique perks and features outside the archetype, often bearing little or no semblance to their namesakes and are routinely balanced in the sandbox individually, separately. Bastion for example is not at all representative of the state of the Fusion archetype, behaves nothing like it, and assuredly is on death row. They are classes unto themselves. None of which would change one iota that Shotgun is statistically overused and was entirely overlooked in these adjustments, unlike Sniper. Indeed, the incoming blink exotic can only exacerbate this overuse significantly. Under no circumstances has Fusions seen anything like 8% kill-share or usage. That is deliberately distorting the unbiased picture of archetype usages by a single exotic outlier - admittedly and singly OP and with little doubts of an incoming adjustment to it which will wipe that non-representative figure out in one hit.
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Bearbeitet von Wes: 10/24/2020 6:17:50 PMLiterally go to guardian.gg. Select PS4, survival, all activities. Fusions had 8% of kills for months in an activity where winning mattered. Lower in QP, but that's expected. Destiny tracker includes all playlists and all platforms. PC does not equal console. Movement capabilities are going to favor instantaneous burst damage, pushing up shotgun and sniper usage. Which is why fusions have 2% of kills in any one playlsit or less across PC, but sometimes 8% on console. 6v6 is not going to behave the same as 3v3. 6v6 is faster paced. More opponents. More supers. More close quarters because of the map size. Also favors shotguns and instantaneous damage. Pick a playlist. Pick a platform. Compare apples to apples. If you're only looking at DestinyTracker, you're getting a skewed image. Look at all the trends. All the individual playlists and platforms you can. Identify all trends. You are only looking at one, blanket trend filled with issues that discredit many conclusions that people tend to draw. The [i]only[/i] conclusion you can draw is: Fusions are currently underperformed when looked at across [i]all[/i] platforms. Thats a vague statement that doesn't paint the full picture. I can say: In comp on console, fusions have shown to perform on par with shotguns, with snipers outperforming them both significantly when the playlist population is highest. In QP on console, fusions have consistently underperformed both snipers and shotguns. In comp and QP on PC, fusions are underperforming compared to both special weapons. So what does that say? That means when people [i]need[/i] to use them, they're performing well on console overall. But in environments where [i]instantaneous damage[/i] and [i]close quarters engagements [/i]are favored, fusions are suffering. And does that make logical sense? 100%. Edit: And no way can Bastion single handedly bridge the gap between shotguns ans fusions. It would have much more use in other playlsits if it was.
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Bearbeitet von Yamabushi999i: 10/24/2020 7:03:56 PMI have no justification to triple cherrypick individual platforms, at specific times, on a specific playlist. If light.gg supplies 8% use on a particular day, it's either an outlying, highly non-representative flu ctuating figure or it includes and is dominated by the inclusion of an exotic(s) or both. As a trend Erentil has barely risen beyond 1% kill-share itself since Aggressives were double-nuked and no other Fusion weapon has come close to as popular usage. An unbiased view is that's a big problem for weapon diversity. The reasoning for globally excluding Exotics is sound and doesn't need further justification nor does the overall situation - clear shotgun overuse, with shotgun selectively not addressed for balance, with shotgun-preferential exotics incoming - change this unquestionable problem to even a small degree by dubiously including them. Shotguns, at least statistically with all the ecosystems included, are a weapon diversity problem and it's about time Bungie stopped playing to the crowd about it.
