[quote]This all died when Bungie killed endgame being required for max level. The moment you could level to max or over level based on just XP is when it all died. They went fully casual because even though there is no reason to be max if you don’t run endgame… they wanted to bait non endgame players with max LL “ progression “. The moment someone could out level a true raider by afking thrallway they lost everyone. XP farming became all that matters and it opened the door to not being able over level because of the lengths people would go to and the effect it would have on the game. It all started then.[/quote] The game is no longer XP based and doesn't cater to casuals anymore. And it's the deadest this game has been this long after a DLC. Ever. XP farming was something hardcore players did, it casual players. Casual players didn't set up macros to AFK farm thrallway or golgoroth maze. Those were the hardcore players.

It absolutely is though. The seasonal challenges are completely casual gameplay 90% of the time. Pathfinder, bounties etc. Try to level up just clearing endgame and see how far you get. I’m not saying casual players set up the macros. I’m saying the power Bungie rewarded for high XP leveling/artifact levels killed progression. Because of the macros 1 and because it completely decoupled power from progressing through the games content naturally. Having to be +15 on the artifact to run GMs etc. They did it to extract more time from the base as a whole with zero regard for any level system other than time spent farming/optimizing XP. Oddly enough it was a grind that actually killed the casual population too.

[quote]It absolutely is though. The seasonal challenges are completely casual gameplay 90% of the time. Pathfinder, bounties etc. Try to level up just clearing endgame and see how far you get. I’m not saying casual players set up the macros. I’m saying the power Bungie rewarded for high XP leveling/artifact levels killed progression. Because of the macros 1 and because it completely decoupled power from progressing through the games content naturally. Having to be +15 on the artifact to run GMs etc. They did it to extract more time from the base as a whole with zero regard for any level system other than time spent farming/optimizing XP. Oddly enough it was a grind that actually killed the casual population too.[/quote] Bruh, generating 1000 orbs in core playlist activities isn't casual game play. That's a dozen hours of orb farming. Winning 20 rounds of trials, doing a GM, grinding core playlists to get the ritual weapon ornament. Those alone would take a casual player a couple dozen hours to complete and there are over 100 of them this season. That's NOT casual gameplay. You have to be pretty dedicated to get all of those. I have every raid seals except Iconoclast, ages gilded Conquerors, and I was once a top 400 speedrunner. I'm well acquainted with endgame. I used to enjoy helping other players do endgame but not anymore. All the grinds you mention still exist, we just don't get anything out of them anymore. Seasonal artifact levels are meaningless, light level is meaningless. Hell, with how much the meta shifts these days, even weapon grinds are meaningless. Power cap went up with the new dlc just like it always does, but now we get [b][i]nothing[/i][/b] out of completing it. It just "unlocks" ancient activities we already had access to for years beforehand. All these grinds are still there, there are just no rewards for doing them anymore. They left the stick but took away the carrot. At least in the old days, the grind got you something, be it more experience as a player, easier game play, etc. Now it's all worthless.

So you understand the feeling then…. There have been many seasons past when I had the current raid title day 1, gone flawless as many times as I felt like etc And I’m still running through seasonal challenges getting kills with bows and HCs to get to +15 so I could just get into GMs to gild my conq for the season. All while someone was +30 on the artifact as an afk patrol lord. The decline in progression happened a long time ago, the game is now purely cosmetic. We have the titles, we are flexing etc. But ALL of the progression and LL sandbox problems exploded when Bungie first linked true power to XP and XP that was awarded without prioritizing difficulty. Then they created the problem of having to perma cap damage LL because of what some players were willing to do to over level. They have been fighting it ever since. That’s the sand box we have now and it’s wack for all involved. Sure the challenges you mentioned arent the casual ones. But the rest are and rolling them out in a non retroactive, time gated fashion is even more of a time bait that ignores what you’ve already done. Run a GM isn’t casual… run patrols and lost sectors on 6 different planets is. For Guardian ranks… run story missions when you already have microcosm. They don’t care about progression or player legacy. They care about time played only.

[quote]So you understand the feeling then…. There have been many seasons past when I had the current raid title day 1, gone flawless as many times as I felt like etc And I’m still running through seasonal challenges getting kills with bows and HCs to get to +15 so I could just get into GMs to gild my conq for the season. All while someone was +30 on the artifact as an afk patrol lord. The decline in progression happened a long time ago, the game is now purely cosmetic. We have the titles, we are flexing etc. But ALL of the progression and LL sandbox problems exploded when Bungie first linked true power to XP and XP that was awarded without prioritizing difficulty. Then they created the problem of having to perma cap damage LL because of what some players were willing to do to over level. They have been fighting it ever since. That’s the sand box we have now and it’s wack for all involved. Sure the challenges you mentioned arent the casual ones. But the rest are and rolling them out in a non retroactive, time gated fashion is even more of a time bait that ignores what you’ve already done. Run a GM isn’t casual… run patrols and lost sectors on 6 different planets is. For Guardian ranks… run story missions when you already have microcosm. They don’t care about progression or player legacy. They care about time played only.[/quote] Somewhat ironically, you can grind to 2020 and actually make GMs slightly easier. All the ones I've done this season have been at 2015. But it's kinda funny that GMs is the one place where you can grind light level and have it actually matter. It doesn't take that long to get to 2015 and you know Bungo is gonna open up the GM playlist before the end of the season anyway. Why are you in such a rush? Back in the old days, I understood the rush, because the game didn't cap us like that, but these days? Doesn't matter. Even holding conqueror doesn't appeal to me anymore because none of my friends play the game and LFG got a lot less appealing once everything went to -5.

Well they have totally screwed the new GM structure for FOMO but that’s a different thread. My point was it’s comical that I l/we could be holding the new raid title… have trials mementos on all the new raid weapons… but still need to farm dregs with bows to be able to get into GMs. My point was and is that XP leveling is a detachment from true progression. Especially in a game that doesn’t reward exponentially more XP for clearing a Master Raid than a normal one etc. Also because Destiny at its core is a gear game. The XP portion is just a time bait. That’s all the game is now