Hello, former dedicated player here, and long time poster, as some folks will recognize the name.
After a few months into the DLC, I barely play the game anymore. I log in for the occasional raid or private PvP match sure, but compared to prior seasons and years, my play time is at an all time low.
Here's why, at least for me.
There is no longer a feeling of progression in D2 outside of the fact that missions and other content becomes unavailable as I complete them. Like, yes, I do the seasonal story and then the seasonal story is complete and therefore I "progressed".
However, it does not [b][i]feel[/i][/b] like I progressed.
In Beyond Light, you started out on Europa and you got [b][i]wrecked[/i][/b] by most things. Remember the Brig high value target? Couldn't even hurt it. Then, as you progressed through the story, your light level went up and you got more powerful. Sure the Brig still stomped you early on, but you eventually started seeing damage numbers.
Then, by the end of the story, you could run around the patrol zone and sure that Brig was still tough, but it was defeatable. Then later, when more dlc came out and we got even stronger, the Brig became a nuisance, easily dispatched with barely any effort.
This feeling of progression was super important as that was the primary reason we all (yes even you) grinded for light levels.
With Lightfall and more so in Pale Heart, the light level grind has had an increasingly minimal impact on our actual "power level" and has acted more as a "unlock the activity" function. Our light level doesn't matter in the slightest because everything in the game now operates on a fixed difficulty.
This was a terrible decision for three reasons.
1. Robbing players of progression removes the reason to do more than half the stuff in the game. Light leveling is pointless, so it can be done at one's leisure, so there isn't a push to do activities that would generally grant pinnacles as players can just take their time and do the ones they want every week.
Who cares if it takes 8 weeks to get to cap? Getting to the cap doesn't mean anything and 99% of the game is unlocked by soft cap (plus a few artifact levels) anyway.
2. The process of going from underpowered, to adequately powered, to overpowered was a pivotal part of the game's progression system. It helped players feel better about spending more time doing activities they may not normally do because the reward was being able to do those activities easier in the future.
Now, every activity feels the same every time you do it, no matter what you do. Never progressing out of the default power level scale wrecks the motivation to continue doing it. I already did everything in the Pale Heart at its day 1 difficulty. Why would I go back and do it all again and again? I'm not progressing, I'm not getting more powerful, and I'll never have that feeling of "ah, yes, now I'm over leveled and flying through everything, this feels good."
3. The game now revolves solely around the meta grind, which is a giant waste since most activities don't have meta in the loot pools. Before, we could justify running an otherwise pointless activity because we wanted to have fun, chill out, or help a friend. However, since every run feels like the first run, there is a lack of "chill" in how the activities are run now, which makes them less appealing to repeat over and over again unless you absolutely have to.
While there are many reasons why the population is cratering like Europe's population during the black plague, I feel like the lack of progression and lack of chill is a significant reason for it.
Whether it manifests as burn out because every acticity requires more attention than it did previously or as boredom because dragging two guardian rank 2 blueberries through vanguard ops in its current state isn't actually fun, the game acts like it doesn't even want us to play it anymore.
Please consider reverting back to witch queen and beyond light era light scaling again. If people want harder content, then raise the skill ceiling, but by raising the "skill floor" you have inadvertently removed progression and an element of "chill gaming" from your game, which makes it really hard to justify getting online and playing more often.
Thanks for listening.
-
1 ReplyEdited by Matoakit: 9/2/2024 8:51:22 PM[quote]2. The process of going from underpowered, to adequately powered, to overpowered was a pivotal part of the game's progression system. It helped players feel better about spending more time doing activities they may not normally do because the reward was being able to do those activities easier in the future. Now, every activity feels the same every time you do it, no matter what you do. Never progressing out of the default power level scale wrecks the motivation to continue doing it. I already did everything in the Pale Heart at its day 1 difficulty. Why would I go back and do it all again and again? I'm not progressing, I'm not getting more powerful, and I'll never have that feeling of "ah, yes, now I'm over leveled and flying through everything, this feels good."[/quote] So much this! I used to play pretty frequently, and my casual friends and I would save the hardest content for the end of a season because that would be when we'd have the most power and could stand a chance on harder content. That doesn't exist anymore, we don't get stronger, and we don't bother even trying the harder things anymore. Those last few weeks that used to be fun and exciting and wound us up for more fun the next season simply doesn't exist anymore. It's just continuous blah, sure you can do a lot, but you don't get stronger for doing anything. So there really isn't a point to anything unless you want the loot, and you probably already have that. So we're left with a story to play, and when that's done we just don't play until there is more story. The fun they had on launch doesn't exist anymore. The game is supposed to make you feel overpowered and immortal, even for those with limited skills or time, and they've lost that. Now it's just CoD with magic.
-
14 Replies1) Most of the player base was getting sick and tired of the light level grind. There was plenty of people saying that leveling was not fun. Most people saw this grind as a reset every season when they become weak all over again. It was never fun and was just a big time sink. This was not viewed as progressing, it was seen as regressing every 3 months. The removal of this grind is great and gets more people into endgame. 2) Agreed. They need to have more than 2 difficulty options for activties. And default versions of activities should let players be at +20 like before. I'm not saying that -5 is hard, but this community suffers from brain rot and these poor souls need all the help they can get. 3) The Meta things has always been a thing. I don't see this as a good or bad thing.
-
6 RepliesI also basically quit Destiny today after playing since D1 Alpha, investing 8500 hours in the game, and reporting on Destiny as a journalist for mainstream media. I totally agree with your post. You are absolutely on point. Bungie killed the power fantasy and also removed any reason to grind past the soft cap. Let's be blunt; Bungie has removed much of the joy and fun from the game for reasons that have never been adequately explained, and frankly, make no sense.
-
10 RepliesEdited by Ulzana: 8/25/2024 5:16:09 PM"The biggest mistake you made was robbing players" Of paid content. Of their valuable time. Of Legendary shards. Of their XP. Of having fun.
-
9 RepliesThis "Bring back the challenge" bs was just for the streamers/elites and a BIG F..K YOU to the normal player base. You reap what you sow.
-
Edited by Lord Kielron: 8/25/2024 5:18:31 PMOkay….where to even begin on this topic… First I’ll say that yes, the -lvl crap in all activities is absolute and utter bs it takes away from everything. Now with that being said, I’m going to go on an absolute rant on progression in this franchise… There have only been 3 times in this franchise where progression was an actual thing: beginning of D1 (lvl20), later D1 (lv40), and beginning of D2. That’s it, period. What everyone constantly chases is fn gear score, which should have never been used as a way to show character progression. It should have supplemented the actual progression, not been the defacto level grind. That was designed half a**ed backwards from the start. Add to the fact that now this artifact was introduced to make that even worse, and couple it with the fact that now Bungie routinely puts content above the hard Gear Score cap, and it completely adds to the problem. The whole system was designed in this way to keep players chasing gear level instead of actual progression levels. If it had been correctly designed from the start there would have never been a “forever 29” phase, because gear would have not been made as a “leveling system” in the first place. I could go on for hours about every single one of these issues, but the fact is all of it is ingrained in bad system deign choices, and when they had an opportunity to fix that issue, they doubled down on it. I’ll leave this episode of ranting here. 😂
-
2 RepliesI've disagreed with you on several points regarding different things in the past, however with this post you have put together a rather concise look at the leveling state of the game and, surprisingly, I agree. As much as the leveling system was a pian at times in the past with RnG being an absolute Big Itch it was at least there for a reason that everyone knew was beneficial, eventually. While I don't struggle with current content or the current system, I can fully understand why some people would and think the change to "overall" difficulty was too much and I also think it could've been handled in a better way. Different people want different things from the game and I think there should be enough variation to encompass most skill or enjoyment levels. Make hard content [b]HARD[/b], That's what it's meant to be. Your basic run of the mill content doesn't need to be a grind fest for the average player. I'm hopeful they (Bungo) will walk back the difficulty changes, eventually, at least at the lower levels and people can once again feel a sense power in their "low level" game play without having to think about it too much.
-
Bungie made a mistake sunsetting our stuff. They made a big mistake vaulting at least half the game we paid for. They made a bigger mistake catering to the top 1% of their playerbase. They made an even bigger mistake doing nothing about the cheating/balancing in PVP. And finally, they made the BIGGEST mistake by refusing to listen to any of us about the game's issues
-
2 RepliesFor me, power level grind never equaled progression. Max power level cap (todays pinnacle cap) was the standard, and if you were under it, you played at a handicap in many activities. Now, that handicap is there whether you are at max power or not in most activities since they have capped the max effective power level in activities. So now, unless you play specific activities like Trials, or run master raids, being at the max power level is not important. Good enough will do for 99% of the game. The only reason why players may have felt that power level grind equaled progression was because they saw their power level number go up. Once you reached the pinnacle grind range, you only felt the actual difference in power level in very limited activities. This isnt progression, its moving the goalpost each season so that you grind out the same content in a rotator to get the power/pinnacle drops. It gives you something to chase, and for many players, that may be why they log on. Me personally, I never liked feeling like I couldnt play the activity that I wanted to play while needing to play through only pinnacle activities. I have always wanted to feel as though there was progression, but the design of the game is limited in being able to offer that. Really all that they can do that with is power level, and now nobody even cares about that. So what is there to fill that role? The seasonal model being weekly timegated was meant to make you feel that each week you made progress through the story, but realistically, thats like 15m of activity and 45m of travelling back and forth to different destinations to have an NPC tell you bits and pieces of a story that you may not even care to hear. I felt that early D1 that there was good progression in the game, and parts of D2 like Forsaken, where the universe would start to open up, and you felt that you were expanding with it. It felt as though there was true progression, not just tied to an ever increasing power number. So, how do we get the feeling of progression without tying it to power level? Especially this far in the game where players have repeatedly grinded 99% of the existing game...
-
Without the rest of the game available to new players, the progression of Light Level never will make sense. I would like to see this type of progression, where completing the Red War campaign gets you to 500 Power, Curse of Osiris to 750 Power, and so on, as an example. Additionally, while it is nice to have Power Leaders it should go the other way as well, purposely lower our levels when we go to help the New Lights. It would greatly help make sense logically for the New Light Experience.
-
Edited by SnakeEyes734: 8/28/2024 7:29:59 AMThis game is mostly now log in Tuesday, do some Pathfinders and check off the Fortnite style seasonal checklist. All to get bright dust, the premium currency for Eververse shopping..
-
7 RepliesThis all died when Bungie killed endgame being required for max level. The moment you could level to max or over level based on just XP is when it all died. They went fully casual because even though there is no reason to be max if you don’t run endgame… they wanted to bait non endgame players with max LL “ progression “. The moment someone could out level a true raider by afking thrallway they lost everyone. XP farming became all that matters and it opened the door to not being able over level because of the lengths people would go to and the effect it would have on the game. It all started then.
-
Bungie been chasing the casual Fortnight/COD money with all the progression changes over the years at this point Progression these days seems to now basically mirror Fortnight lol It's a seasonal checklist that basically rewards a currency for a premium shop.
-
2 RepliesAgree with you 100%. Not feeling like you are progressing has made me not bother to play past the story stuff now. I'm just riding out what I paid for because this game just isn't gonna offer me the power fantasy I want if I put the time in.
-
2 RepliesThere really is no reason to play other than because you want to anymore. That's what you WANT from a game, but the game's activities don't support that kind of play. There's genuinely no reason to grind for power or for gear because ultimately everything hits a ceiling that goes beyond power ADVANTAGE. Now we are always slightly weaker than the activity we choose to challenge and so nothing really feels all that purposeful anymore. It's like they are returning to an action game style of play where you just select difficulties and that be the only thing that affected how hard things are...which doesn't work anymore. I remember in destiny 1 where hard mode for raids were the pinnacle of destiny. You grinded your level to the absolute MAX to make it as easy as possible until you eventually hit the hard cap. Since they changed that system, all hard activities boil down to "alright, no matter what you do, EVEN IF YOU GRIND THIS ACTIVITY, will you actually become stronger." We are at such a low point that regular gameplay doesn't feel rewarding even though that's what the game wants. Literally it feels like a flip of release destiny 2. Went from streamlining an experience to draw in new players, to making the experience pointless for everybody. Now somebody can come in here and say "well if you aren't having fun then stop playing" and the amount of times I've heard it have started giving me migraines even though I've never actually had one. I'm literally the type of person where I'll come in and grind what I want then stop. But even with the stuff I very clearly want, I can't convince myself to do it because there's no end result of having it. My guns will always be handicapped and my armor quite literally doesn't matter because they try to sell transmog the way it is. There's literally no value to the core game anymore, so the absolutely lifeless activities that I forced myself to do for years, have no purpose anymore.
-
1 ReplyWho do you think you are, coming on the forums with a balanced and well thought out post! We'll have none of that here 😂😂😂
-
I agree. My play time and variety of activities is continually declining. My adult son got me into this game and has carried me for five years. These days he only plays with me on Sundays. D2 is the only game I play. He's an avid gamer and he's good but he doesn't want to spend his time in D2. Point is, we are both ends of the spectrum and both losing interest in D2. I have no answers, I just know I don't have much incentive to do more than a few bounties.
-
I find that power progression is no longer a fun thing since it becomes a moving goalpost and gating you with "not strong enough" as content like your brig example, same with difficulty and it's more noticeable in destiny
-
Edited by xbroggiex: 8/25/2024 10:16:00 AMPower levelling if it became a main thing again needs to be replaced with an XP based system, no more of the bad RNG power drops that could end up being a waste of your time acquiring and power levelling should matter again by letting you overlevel anything that isn't grandmaster difficulty. If the progression system was more of a guarantee I doubt we'd have seen many complaints about it or even Bungie reducing it or outright basically removing it.
-
6 RepliesNo way! Bad take. The leveling system forced you to grind certain activities and at times, force you to wait until the next day or next week to further increase your power. Just so that you could play the activities you actually wanted to play. I flipping love that I can play exactly what I want to play in destiny, and then when I’m finished I can stop playing. Or play something else Too many people and games come up with ways to force you to no-life 1 game. Y’all it’s ok to run out of stuff to do in a game and actually play something else. Or go outside lol
-
1 ReplyYeah, no. The season to season power progression was awful.
-
1 ReplyI’m with you on this one bud. The lack of meaningful progression or progression that has an impact on your gameplay or ability to complete harder content really emphasises the fact that there isn’t really a point in doing any of what the game is offering you to do. The fact I can keep my same weapons and armour equipped season in and season out and providing I can match the seasonal champion stun I literally never need to switch anything out barring a couple of weapons. If people can’t see how that’s an issue then I’m at a loss. The reason the light level should be increased each season is too incentivise players to get out there, play the seasonal content and earn the loot, steadily increase their power until they can match the power delta and start to pack a punch. It makes it feel like the time you’ve played has helped you make forward ground and as a result the content starts to feel easier and more manageable. I think contest modes, master raids and GM’s should always have a power handicap but the game should allow you to level up to par with other content. Here’s a hot take that’ll ruffle a few feathers, I also think you should only be able to upgrade your gear using weapons or armour acquired from the current seasonal activity, Trials, the most recent raid or the raid that’s in rotation that week. There are far too many sources in game now which you can get a pinnacle reward from and that’s why they don’t feel valuable.
-
As a long-time casual player, I agree with you. I'm tired of dying. There is no valid reason why, after investing 1000s of hrs in one character, I can't beat Omnigul at the bottom of the hill. Does she have a membership at Gold's Gym? I want my god mode for payback!
-
1 ReplyAnd then they nerf mods and slap us elemental and orb cooldowns...
-
1 ReplyEdited by Seiryoku: 8/26/2024 7:40:49 PM[b]I like the idea of progression[/b] and different places [b]offering greater challenges for greater rewards.[/b] I think their execution left something to be desired and many of the casual players didn't see the vision of what they wanted to accomplish and felt alienated. I think since Lightfall they have improved on that front but I don't want to return to a grueling grind just to see the number go up for marginally better damage and not being 1 shot. Creating interesting mechanics and new enemy types was always better than watching numbers get larger.
-
1 ReplyPersonally, i think its the gameplay loop that caused us to lose the will to play the game When strand and stasis came out, we had brand new abilities to play with, new supers to master, new things to do with old and new content (Grapple across oryx chasm, Stasis wall players (who cant jump very well) through jumping puzzles, etc) the game felt fresh because we had new things to try out. Did a stasis user freeze a bunch of adds for another person to nova bomb? Did a strand user just use a clone to save himself and revive an ally? Little things like this brought new life to gameplay no matter the content and it felt good to try and figure out the best build for the user. Final shape, didnt have that feeling. Sure, we got prismatic which allowed us to mix and match alot of abilities into new ideas. But we were still using the same abilities we have been since they came out. Titans are still consecrating, Hunters are still grappling around or punching and rolling, Warlocks are still setting up turrets or just devouring everything. Nothing feels new to the gameplay loop and alot of people took notice. (YES, we did get 3 new supers to add onto the gameplay loop alongside the new fragments, but how often do you see them over wells and bubbles?, and who honestly uses the titans fragment on void when the others are 100% better?)