Yeah, I am taking a break after the DLC launches. I’ve found interest in Metroidvania games (And there’s an abundance), so I’ll be hibernating this summer 😅

If it’s not that serious, why would it hurt to reduce the grind?

Why reduce something that isn't a problem for the vast majority of the player base? It's pointless to make a change just because someone else forgot that it's a videogame and not a job.

Why? Why not? Since a reduced grind wouldn’t be too serious or seriously affect anyone, right?

Salty doesn't seem to get it. You've made a valid point and put it right in front on him but he either can't see the message or refuses to.

[quote]Salty doesn't seem to get it. You've made a valid point and put it right in front on him but he either can't see the message or refuses to.[/quote] There is no valid point of reducing or dumbing things done just to cater to people who clearly don't want to play the game. Either play it and play what's required to get things or play something else that has what you or anyone else wants.

Have you ever made a simple Pro & Cons list for something not particularly important? What's interesting in doing so is that you stand back and look at things objectively, simply weighing options and predicting outcomes. You aren't emotionally attached to any particular item on the list, at least not at first, and not in the same way one would be in a trying to prove a point or win an argument, especially when if correct and in the right, and on the side of truth. No. What you do instead is formulate possibilities and follow them to their logical conclusion as best you can. Similarly, we don't get emotionally attached to a grocery items list. But, if you had to make a list of who's going to be on your day 1 raid or dungeon fire team, then I'm sure you'd be a little more invested in your decision making. So, WTF am I talking about? Check it: Option A) #$%(*@*&$ - just kidding, more like "Can I just play without the pay, man?" Option B) It's just a game, bro. Third party enters and says to Option B, "Why share if you don't care, man?" Now I enter and suggest to Option B that they get off the hockey ice and instead stand in the penalty box for uno-momento in order to spend some time making a Pros and Cons list for both Option A & B. And while doing so, maybe consider the irony of your passion to argue the insignificance of making any changes at all to a game that apparently matters not.

[quote]Have you ever made a Pro & Cons list? What's interesting in doing so is that you stand back and look at things objectively, simply weighing options and predicting outcomes.[/quote] I don't need to make a list in regards to something that has already been done in this game and has very clearly failed, which is why they changed it. [quote] You aren't emotionally attached to any particular item on the list, at least not at first, and not in the same way one would be in a trying to prove a point and win an argument, especially when that person is correct and in the right, and on the side of truth. [/quote] It's an opinion. No one is right or wrong in an opinion. However, it is a known fact that when the game came out and they made extremely casual and removed almost all of the grind from it, it nearly killed the game. No one wants to play a game that revolves around grinding and putting time into things just to have those things removed. Well, outside of delusional people who think that every game needs to fit their specific needs or wants. [quote]Similarly, we don't get emotionally attached to a grocery items list. But, if you had to make a list of who's going to be on your day 1 raid or dungeon fire team, then I'm sure you'd be a little more invested in your decision making.[/quote] If someone is so attached to the game that they need everything to be catered and changed for them instead of them just moving on to a game that already has their wants and needs then that's not my problem to deal with or affirm. [quote]So, WTF am I talking about? Check it: Option A) #$%(*@*&$ Option B) It's just a game, bro. Third party enters and says to Option B, "Why share if you don't care, man?" Now I enter and suggest to Option B that they get off the hockey ice and instead stand in the penalty box for uno-momento in order to spend some time making a Pros and Cons list for both Option A & B. [/quote] Again, there's no need for a list when the [u][b]games own history[/b][/u] has proven how dumbing things down and reducing grind doesn't work for it. Their new system of being able to slightly target farm specific things is an improvement, but it still requires the player to play the game and grind for things which isn't reducing the grind. [quote] And while doing so, maybe consider the irony of your passion to argue the insignificance of making any changes at all to a game that apparently matters not.[/quote] My passion isn't the game. It's pointing out facts and easily triggering those who can't handle them. I also never said they couldn't make changes to the game. I clearly stated that making pointless changes like reducing or removing the whole thing the game revolves around is idiotic when those who don't like it have the literally hundreds of thousands of games out there to find what they specifically want over forcing other games to change.

[quote]Why? Why not? Since a reduced grind wouldn’t be too serious or seriously affect anyone, right?[/quote] Yes, actually, it would. Reducing things or dumbing them down to cater to those who don't actually want to play the game is the quickest way to kill any game. There's a very clear example of this with D2 and what they did for year 1. Making the game a super casual game makes it so no one wants to play it. If someone wants that kind of game, then instead of demanding a company fully change their game, just go and play any of the countless other games that already meet their wants.

[quote]"to cater to those who don't actually want to play the game"[/quote] What you don't understand, Salty, is that he wants to play the game in all it's glory but is saying the requirements are too steep. He wants to go on vacation but can only afford a week long holiday due to time restraints, etc. and due to Bungie's requirement that the vacation must be 2 months in duration, he's unable to go. The complaint is that the size of the jungle is to vast for the explorer to map out within their given time restraints---not that he isn't up for adventure! The complaint is that they want to enjoy the theme park ride but are too short make the cut---not that he's unwilling to climb the stairs to the waterslide. I don't blame them. The ride is fantastic!...But alas, life requires that busy little bees be...busy. Personally, I'm alright if those who can't afford the vacation still get a vacation for themselves. Let them have a holiday, too! You both get what you want, no? You get to climb the mountain, since you enjoy hiking, whereas he gets to take the ski lift, since he enjoys the view from the top. Win win.

[quote]What you don't understand, Salty, is that he wants to play the game in all it's glory but is saying the requirements are too steep. He wants to go on vacation but can only afford a week long holiday due to time restraints, etc. and due to Bungie's requirement that the vacation must be 2 months in duration, he's unable to go.[/quote] The only thing stopping someone from playing the fame fully is choice. It's not bungie's responsibility to change things due to someone's choice. There also isn't anything in the game stopping people from not playing it for a portion of time. If you're trying to refer to fomo, then that's still just a personal issue and not anyone else's responsibility to fix. [quote]The complaint is that the size of the jungle is to vast for the explorer to map out within their given time restraints. The complaint is that they want to enjoy the theme park ride but are too short make the cut. I don't blame them. The ride is fantastic but life requires that busy little bees be...busy.[/quote] If someone doesn't have the time to play something, then do what others do and make time if they truly want to. There are plenty of things to do in the game that don't require a ton of time to do. I barely play the game currently, and yet I've still found the time to complete everything that I've wanted to up to this point. [quote]Personally, I'm alright if those who can't afford the vacation still get a vacation for themselves. Let them have a holiday, too! You both get what you want, no? You get to climb the mountain, since you enjoy hiking, whereas he gets to take the ski lift, since he enjoys the view from the top. Win win.[/quote] Again, removing things be it grind or time commitment just to make it so some person who did nothing can feel special isn't the way most games are run. Almost every successful game out there requires a form of time commitment, and, depending on the game, the need to grind for things. Demanding that things be changed just so those who made the choice to play a game, knowing full well that it requires a time commitment and the need to grind for things is a pointless change. And if they didn't know that before playing then that's their own fault for not looking it what they started playing.

I'm not suggesting Bungie build a new house or even add on an addition to make room for a larger family. I'm simply offering icing to your already baked cake by saying just unlock the doors to the rooms which already exist. There's plenty of room. Bungie handed out several keys to a few rooms when they made Expansions free. What's wrong with giving them a couch and a bed, too, to make them comfortable in that room? We've been living in this house for years and our bedrooms are decked out. We're comfy. Let's increase the size of our family now.

If there was less grind, why would that make players who you describe as “wanting to play the game”, want to play less? Wouldn’t they “just want to play” despite the grind? A change in system isn’t that serious right? It’s just a game right?

[quote]If there was less grind, why would that make players who you describe as “wanting to play the game”, want to play less?[/quote] Because making it so things are significantly easier to get makes it pointless to play a game [u][b]designed around farming[/b][/u] for things. It also wouldn't stop there. If people get things reduced the way you're speaking of, then how long until they start demanding that bungie either give the content exclusive loot outside of said content or just outright demanding they be given everything for doing nothing? As I've said, if this game isn't what people want, then go play any of the countless other games that have exactly what they want. [quote]Wouldn’t they “just want to play” despite the grind? A change in system isn’t that serious right? It’s just a game right?[/quote] It is a game and demanding pointless changes to cater to those who barely play the game while essentially taking what others earned from actually playing, and just handing them out is how you kill off those who actually play the game. D2 year 1 is still the best proof of that. They made the game extremely casual and made it so there was little to no grind, and that's why just about everyone quit until they said that they were reversing that useless change.

You make some good, yet obvious points here. However, you’re absolutely sidestepping my question. The premise used to dismiss the criticism of the grind is based around a strawman argument against the grind, some of which is, and has been increased over the years. Your premise is that it’s not that serious, and if you don’t like long quest steps and increase grind, then you should play another game. The thing is, this game used to be less grindy, we literally have an example at a different era of this game to draw from in terms of what the community might consider to be the right grind…. In fact, Bungie, originally avoided calling Destiny an MMO in the beginning, specifically stating that it wasn’t, instead, it was a shared world, shooter, or classified by the community affectionately as looter shooter. It wasn’t until the game went free to play that Bungie embraced the title MMO, which was also when the grind increased. Bungie at this time cited that they were trying to make the game’s grind in line with a complete solo experience for each players class, as opposed to being able to experience the game through all three characters. No added content, no other elements that are present in MMO games, just more percentages on quest steps, sliders and more grind. Now, it’s perfectly reasonable to completely disagree with everything I’m saying, as it is a fair debate… Which takes us back to your original premise, everything that you’re saying(specifically when straw Manning) to dismiss the criticism of the grind can easily be turned back on you. I’ve illustrated that pretty clear. However, as acknowledged above, your ad hoc, post straw man arguments are actually valid, logically sound, and worth exploring. Unfortunately, the macheezemo, false bravado dismissivness is cringe as usual. GGs breh.

[quote]You make some good, yet obvious points here. However, you’re absolutely sidestepping my question. The premise used to dismiss the criticism of the grind is based around a strawman argument against the grind, some of which is, and has been increased over the years. Your premise is that it’s not that serious, and if you don’t like long quest steps and increase grind, then you should play another game.[/quote] It makes more sense than to try and demand that a whole game be changed just because it doesn't meet the requirements that someone wants from it. [quote]The thing is, this game used to be less grindy, we literally have an example at a different era of this game to draw from in terms of what the community might consider to be the right grind….[/quote] D2 year 1 with the reduced grind was the worst point for the game, and D1 definitely had a lot more grind to it. I don't think what your actually meaning is reducing the grind but rather reducing the randomness to said grind. Or at least that's what I'm hoping you're actually meaning. [quote]In fact, Bungie, originally avoided calling Destiny an MMO in the beginning, specifically stating that it wasn’t, instead, it was a shared world, shooter, or classified by the community affectionately as looter shooter. [/quote] I mean, the game definitely is a looter shooter, and just because they avoided calling the game, what it is doesn't make something else. [quote]It wasn’t until the game went free to play that bungee embraced the title MMO, which was also when the grind increased. Bungee at this time sided that they were trying to make the game’s grind in line with a complete solo experience for each players class, as opposed to being able to experience the game through all three characters. [/quote] I don't think they ever said that. There have always been aspects of the game that can be done solo, but the game has always been built around playing with others. [quote]No added content, no other elements that are present in MMO games, just more percentages on quest steps, sliders and more grind. Now, it’s perfectly reasonable to completely disagree with everything I’m saying, as it is a fair debate…[/quote] I fully agree that the game doesn't have a lot of MMO elements to it. I personally would like them to lean more into and have better build crafting and class trees. [quote]Which takes us back to your original premise, everything that you’re saying(specifically when straw Manning) to dismiss the criticism of the grind can easily be turned back on you. I’ve illustrated that pretty clear. However, as acknowledges above, your ad hoc, post straw man arguments are actually valid, logically sound, and worth exploring.[/quote] I don't see the point of reducing the grind. Reducing the randomness on what is earned on the other is a different matter. Either way, if bungie does start reducing things by a noticeable amount, then it starts to open the whole can of worms. Once it starts, then where do it stop? It'll just turn into people demanding more and more until no one gets what they want and no one wants to play the game. [quote]Unfortunately, the macheezemo, false bravado dismissivness is cringe as usual. GGs breh.[/quote] I don't think I explicitly dismissed anything. If I did, then my bad. It most likely bleed over from another post where the OP of it didn't like being told how them making a false statement doesn't make it true. That then turned into them making multiple threats and telling people to die over it.

No one under any circumstances should tell anybody that they should die over their opinion.

Yeah. I tried explaining that to them, and then they got more upset, continued to do it, and then tried acting like they are all high and mighty and the best person in the world. Haven't gotten a response back from them for a while, so I'm assuming they got a ban after 10+ replies of threats and everything.

This kind of takes us back to the whole, it’s not that serious thing. We can have a pretty substantive disagreement, but I don’t hate a man over it.

Salty, the gift of sharing is a wonderful thing. I get it. You worked hard for what you have. You earned it. Moreover, people shouldn't go around trying to fix what isn't broken, right. You like things the way they are, they way they've always been, and you don't want anyone changing it. Heck, maybe you'll feel your accomplishments will in some way mean less if others get to reap the same benefits as you without putting in as much skin in the game as you. You just can't stand the thought of another eating the same cake as you when they had no hand in mixing the ingredients. Can you? Or maybe you think it's the effort that counts. Yeah, maybe you don't want to rob others from experiencing the same pride you felt when you earned [insert triumph or title here]. After all, it builds character! Now, roll up your sleeves and get to work, you bum! I'm saying these things to provoke a response from you in order to uncover what's really troubling you. I'm not buying what you're offering here. Who defends a point of contention so vigorously as you have when they claim the matter at hand is unimportant? Here's what I think: you are a smart individual who's bored and looking for some stimulating conversation to captivate your attention, even at the risk of a heated debate or offending someone. Now, I'm not inferring an offence was taken in anyway, because I'm not offended by anything you've said; nor am I suggesting that your goal is to trigger people. I'm curious though... I'm wondering if maybe you actually care more ---just more --- than you would like to admit, or if you're simply bored and seeking a cure. And by the phrasing of my question, I think I already know your answer.

[quote]Salty, the gift of sharing is a wonderful thing.[/quote] Not everything needs to be shared with everyone. [quote]I get it. You worked hard for what you have. You earned it. Moreover, people shouldn't go around trying to fix what isn't broken, right. You like things the way they are, they way they've always been, and you don't want anyone changing it.[/quote] Not at all what I said. I very clearly stated that them going and changing things back to essentially just be d2 year 1 is the worst thing they can do. No one wanted it to be more casual, and those who did made up such a small insignificant amount of the playerbase that it nearly killed the game. [quote]Heck, maybe you'll feel your accomplishments will in some way mean less if others get to reap the same benefits as you without putting in as much skin in the game as you. You just can't stand the thought of another eating the same cake as you when they had no hand in mixing the ingredients. Can you?[/quote] I couldn't care less what someone has. Handing out participation trophies to those who didn't participate, however, is moronic. It really isn't that hard of a concept to understand that if you want something in the game, then go and play what's required. [quote]Or maybe you think it's the effort that counts. Yeah, maybe you don't want to rob others from experiencing the same pride you felt when you earned [insert triumph or title here]. After all, it builds character! Now, roll up your sleeves and get to work, you bum![/quote] Again, couldn't care less about someone else's effort. But telling others that instead of actually playing the game that all they had to do was whine on the forums, and then they'd just get things handed to them is, yet again, moronic. [quote]I'm saying these things to provoke a response from you in order to uncover what's really troubling you. I'm not buying what you're offering here. Who defends a point of contention so vigorously as you have when they claim the matter at hand is unimportant?[/quote] Nothing is troubling me. I'm perfectly calm. I'm not the one demanding needless changes to something just so everyone can have their participation trophy and gold star so they can feel special about doing nothing. [quote]Here's what I think: you are a smart individual who's bored and looking for some stimulating conversation to captivate your attention, even at the risk of a heated debate or offending someone. Now, I'm not inferring an offence was taken in anyway, because I'm not offended by anything you've said; nor am I suggesting that your goal is to trigger people. I'm curious though... I'm wondering if maybe you actually care more ---just more --- than you would like to admit, or if you're simply bored and seeking a cure. And by the phrasing of my question, I think I already know your answer.[/quote] First, I couldn't care less if someone gets offended by being told that things don't need to be dumbed down just to cater to them or anyone else. My point on this post is simply to state the fact that this game has, in its own history, not benefitted from making it a casual experience. The only thing I do care about is the fact that's these posts have been being made for years, and yet the game has never returned to being an extremely casual game so why do people keep making these posts? Especially when the evidence provided by the game itself says that it can't survive from casual players, so why cater to them? Other posts of people throwing a fit or just whining about something, I definitely am on some of those just to get a rise out of those people. It works very well on a majority of them.