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Edited by UnleashedArcher:
1/12/2018 1:02:45 PM
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So here is the thing, at least how i see it;
D1 ships incomplete, lots of hyped up promises, overall under delivers. Bungie works hard over the course of three years to adjust the game economy, weapon balances, game balances, writes a better story, has more defined goals, listens to the community and helps make Destiny 1 a pretty decent and satisfying game by the end of year 3 as they showed growth. Many stuck around through out the course of three years as there was plenty to grind for, the raids were fun and overall the game made you want to play between dlcs. Then they announce Destiny 2.
Destiny 2 ships incomplete, lots of hyped up promises and under delivers. Now are they expecting us to wait another 3 years after they already established a solid platform in Destiny 1 that they seemingly wiped out for no reason? And in 3 years they will just announce another Destiny most likely as Destiny 2 is a huge failure. I dont have the drive to play this game anymore. There is nothing that makes me want to come back, the only thing is the next DLC that i bought so im stuck til then.
Some may not agree with this, but Destiny 2 tarnished Bungie's reputation as a game developer. Cause now when you see another game made by Bungie your gonna think of the colossal CF that was Destiny 2 and not believe a single word they say. Yes the fanboys will preach that they are amazing and whatnot ( you do you) but the analytics show the game has hemorrhaged players, game sales are down, company trust is down and Bungie knowing this show zero sense of urgency. Fall is too far for something most people think should have shipped with destiny 2 on launch. They should have used the Destiny 1 Platform, build off of that and introduced all the stuff they expect us to wait six months for. Now yes, its a step in the right direction, but honestly any step is in the right direction when you have been running backwards for 6 months.
And before you say, go play another game, yes i am playing other games and destiny 2 is collecting dust, but understand this, i love the idea behind destiny and i loved destiny 1, i want to see the game succeed as it encompasses a lot of things i look for in a game. But destiny 2 is a hollow experience there is really no arguing that. I will play the next DLC because i have to, but after that it looks bleak if i will buy anymore DLCs or anything Bungie makes in the future.
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https://kotaku.com/and-the-destiny-merry-go-round-spins-again-1822031500 It’s called the Destiny merry go round.
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You are exactly right. IMO.
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That about sums it up. You're right by ROI I felt like Destiny had really started to come together. I thought D2 would be D1 with more improvements. Who would have thought that every improvement they made in D1 would be scrapped and D2 would be back at square one. Now Bungie is scrambling to add things from D1 into D2 when that's where we should have started. So now we're supposed to wait three years again to get what feels like a complete and decent game. Then what? When D3 rolls out the whole process begins all over. This is what happens when an incomplete half baked game gets rushed out the door to meet a deadline. I can't help it D2 just feels half thought out and unfinished. Fixing games on the fly after release is clearly not the way to go.
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Agreed. Same here as far as the Dlc goes but if i play it as much as Osiris it wont matter any way. What bungie did with destiny 2 defies all logic and i will not trust them with my money again.
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I'm not going to say go leave, however Bungie did have to remake almost everything after a wipe in 2016 for D2. I'm not defending the cyclical pattern that seems to be appearing, I am going to say that the game already has much better story elements than anything in all 3 years of D1. The music is nicer, and the visuals are stunning. I just hope that a worthwhile game can form from such good pieces.
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Edited by DaGroove: 1/12/2018 9:44:43 PMNewsflash bro, you don’t [i]have[/i] to play the shitty minuscule dlcs that came with the pre-order. I know I didn’t and won’t. 2 missions of CoO and I put down the controller, probably forever. D2 is long uninstalled to make room for real games that don’t waste my time. What do I care about 30 extra bucks I spent last summer? That’s two main courses at a lower end restaurant. [spoiler]edited because I didn’t like my own tone...[/spoiler]
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Thinking with your stomach lolz, I hear yah man
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Always hungry 😔
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Yeah it's going to depend how I feel at that time ultimately, I mean who knows the dlc could be amazing, doubt it but who knows. If anything I will wait until the real meaty changes come to the game before playing it again. Or give it another chance. I know for a fact I will be neck deep in the dark souls remastered edition when that hits in the spring.
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Sounds sweet! I wish you all the best
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Edited by TheEvilYouKnow: 1/12/2018 6:13:23 PMThere’s a huge difference between destiny 2 and vanilla destiny 1. Destiny 1 was built on basically functioning gameplay SYSTEMS. While the game had major tuning, balance, and content issues, the core systems in destiny 1 worked and worked well when allowed to shine. Destiny 2 on the other hand has core systems that are FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN. There is no update that can fix destiny 2. It can’t be fixed with tuning or by adding content. The game needs to be completely stripped down and rebuilt from the ground up. At this point there is no fixing destiny 2. The best thing they can do is start releasing content for destiny 1 again and hopefully learn these lessons for destiny 3.
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What "broken" systems are you speaking of that they're so critically wrong that require the whole game should be scrapped and rebuilt differently?
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Edited by TheEvilYouKnow: 1/12/2018 7:33:20 PMAlmost everything. The loot system, not just in how the loot is designed and balanced but how it’s earned. The class system is inconsistent, uninteresting, unbalanced, and gives no actual chance for making meaningful decisions that impact gameplay. The quest system, the faction and reputation systems. Nearly everything about pvp. The raid, how it’s designed, how it gives out loot and rewards completion. Everything about how eververse has been handled. How they incentivize daily and weekly activities. The variety, or lack thereof, of daily and weekly activities. There is so much, so hopelessly wrong with this game, and I absolutely loved the state of destiny 1 in the final year. So, I’m not just complaining to complain. Literally, all they needed to do was give us MORE destiny 1, but all they wanted to do was make as much money in the short term as they could.
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I disagree on the class system. Nothing about that seems inconsistent or unbalanced to me and any meaningful differences you're looking for can easily be accomplished with tuning them differently and/or adding more options, not a complete overhaul whatsoever. What the hell's wrong with the quest system? You completely lost me there. The quests aren't much different than in D1, except some are a little short. Again, nothing that can't be tweaked because they didn't reinvent the wheel there. I don't see anything wrong with reputation systems either. Tokens are completely valid and are just another form of earning reputation that also works. There's nothing inherently broken about it. The more I read it's becoming clear that I don't think anything Bungie could do would ever please you. It seems you want them to travel back in time and make D2 by directly copy/pasting everything we had in D1 and just throwing the new content on top.
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Well said. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
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And yes, we do want them to just copy paste destiny 1 and throw new content on top. Because age of triumph destiny 1 WAS ACTUALLY A GOOD GAME. Are you seriously criticizing people for wanting to play a game that’s actually good?
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Edited by GrundleBeans: 1/12/2018 8:18:45 PMSorry, but please speak for yourself, not "us". I don't want a copy/paste job. I don't want to wait another year or two of nothing happening with this game just to get everything good and bad we had with the previous game and then some stuff bolted on to it. If all I wanted was D1 systems back, I'd be playing D1 still. You can too. I'm commenting that certain things you say are "broken" aren't actually broken in any way. I'm criticizing your interpretation of what's necessary for making this game better, because throwing out the whole kitchen sink just to bolt this to the old one isn't the only way to fix things. I think you want that only because you prefer D1, not because D2 is beyond fixing or becoming better than D1. I get not wanting to reboot with every new title. I just think it's completely unreasonable to say D2 needs to be pulled apart and copy/pasted onto D1 as the only solution to that, rather than focusing on "Hey, improve this game by listening to our feedback on what you've given us and don't reboot us again with the next title". Because reboots usually happen for more than one reason and they don't go backwards.
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I’m not saying any of that. I’m saying an addon to D1 would have been leaps and bounds better than D2 because of how reductive and shitty D2 actually is. Not because I had a problem with “rebooting” in the first place. I’d have rather they just made D2 actually better than D1. Unfortunately, D2 is worse than D1 in almost every way. The only exceptions being changes to the world map and public events. There are plenty of things that COULD have been improvements, like lost sectors and adventures as well as changes to shaders, but instead failed miserably. Stop dreaming about what D2 could have been and start recognizing what it actually is. You’re naive and delusional if you think bungie is going to fix this game. D2 is exactly what bungie wanted and intended and they’ve made money hand over fist. They could give a shit about whether the game is actually good. This isn’t about fixing destiny 2. That’s NEVER going to happen, because bungie and activision aren’t going to give up millions of dollars so you’ll like their games more. This is about the future of the medium, because as long as the destiny 2’s and GTA online’s of the world continue to make hundreds of millions of dollars by destroying their games for shameless monetization than that’s how games are going to continue to be made. Until we stop buying this shit and stop giving them second chances, until it stops being profitable nothing will change with triple A gaming.
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Edited by GrundleBeans: 1/12/2018 9:01:20 PM[quote]I’m not saying any of that. I’m saying an addon to D1 would have been leaps and bounds better than D2 because of how reductive and shitty D2 actually is.[/quote] And I'm saying I disagree with your interpretation. I'm no stranger to what we've lost, but I don't for a minute think we aren't or can't get this game to what we liked about D1 and then some faster than it took to get us to year 3 D1 before D3 comes around. [quote]There are plenty of things that COULD have been improvements, like lost sectors and adventures as well as changes to shaders, but instead failed miserably.[/quote] Which I also disagree with calling a failure. Sure they could be better, but they likely WILL be because of our feedback. Just because they didnt' get them near perfect from the start doesn't mean (1) having them at all wasn't an improvement to start over D1 not having them [i]at all[/i], or (2) they won't become great over time. Instead of seeing what they could be, you're claiming them a failure from the start and I just can't agree with that shortsightedness. [quote]Stop dreaming about what D2 could have been and start recognizing what it actually is.[/quote] Or stop living in the past and not being able to see anything past the present... You're ignoring how things can be fixed or improved. I'm not dreaming either, I'm trying to be realistically optimistic that change can and will happen. How do you think we got to D1's year 3, huh?We got to what you like so much about year 3 because they kept moving forward and we kept up feedback to get it there. [quote]This is about the future of the medium[/quote] That's a whooole other, bigger topic beyond Destiny that I'm not trying to solve with you. I'm onboard with if you don't like what a company is doing, don't buy their stuff. That's how capitalism is supposed to work. But still, the industry won't learn or be innovative if the solutions we come up with are they can only add to something already established and that no mistake is acceptable and no time will be allotted for fixing any mistake.
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That’s the problem. The idea that these mistakes are acceptable. Bungie didn’t make a mistake. They deliberately decided to release a subpar product because they knew it would make them the most money. It’s not acceptable to release a shitty half finished product and than make us wait two years and buy $100 in dlc to turn it into something worthwhile. It’s not acceptable to gut your entire endgame system and replace it with a shallow, real money, random loot box based dress up game. None of it is acceptable. But it will continue to be profitable because people like you will continue to defend them and continue to fight against the people trying to hold them accountable. Bungie didn’t make a mistake. This isn’t an accident. They ripped you off. They scammed you. And this isn’t a speculation. THEY ADMITTED TO SCAMMING YOU. And you still defend them for it and give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Edited by GrundleBeans: 1/12/2018 10:27:29 PM[quote]They deliberately decided to release a subpar product because they knew it would make them the most money. [/quote] That's entirely an opinion of your own design. You have no proof whatsoever to back that claim. [quote]None of it is acceptable.[/quote] Then why are you even still here. You're proving my guess was right. There is nothing now or ever about D2 that will satisfy you, so if you're not going to be satisfied, there's no good reason in you sticking around complaining. You're not trying to hold them accountable, you're not trying to get things improved. You're only trying to get others to abandon ship by claiming everything is wrong and bad, regardless of whether each small to big thing actually is or isn't. We don't have to agree on everything, but it's clear you have no desire for any sort of compromise to get most of what we both want. I think we're done here.
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Given what I’ve seen released in gaming media, I don’t know if that’s just an opinion...
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Edited by TheEvilYouKnow: 1/12/2018 7:47:23 PMIs it really? Because there are plenty of games I love that aren’t destiny 1, and at launch I defended a lot of the decisions bungie had made with d2 not recognizing them for what they actually were. The more I read your posts the more it becomes clear that you just don’t know what actual good game design looks like. If you think anything about the state of subclasses in destiny 2 is even remotely acceptable you clearly don’t play or understand what an rpg, even an rpg-lite like destiny, is supposed to be.
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Your problem there is assuming you know what Destiny is "supposed" to be according to what YOU personally expect an [i]RPG[/i] to be. Destiny's not supposed to be a copy of other RPGs. It's whatever they think it should be. We knew that going into this game that Bungie was trying to create something different than other games . They may trip on a few ideas here and there, but just because it doesn't fit some preconceived status quo you've grown accustomed to from other games, doesn't mean it needs to copy other games to the T. Maybe it's not even that they're trying to do something different here and there, but how much and how quickly different they tried to be. There are plenty of other games I love that aren't Destiny too, but I'm not playing any of them. I've never played any of them as much as I've played Destiny 1 OR 2. I think the difference between you and me is you saw some bad mistakes and interpreted them as broken instead of fixable, while I saw the same mistakes and interpret them as fixable and things that can improve. Or simply not a big part of my overall experience. Optimism vs pessimism. For instance, you may care mostly about PvP and that's where all your big concerns lie, so anything you think is wrong with that just amplifies what you think is wrong with the game overall. Whereas I don't care that much about PvP, so your issues with the game aren't the same as mine and my concern is that they don't focus solely on PvP issues. All it needs is feedback and for them to listen. If they don't, then neither of us will ever get Destiny a way we fully like. I think we can both agree that there are many issues that they still have to fix and improve on, and we both want to see new and worthwhile content/activities, but where we disagree is whether things are broken or not and how those issues can be resolved.
