Remove the cheese from CE and it becomes half decent, and maybe change the start and have some objective while running the maze Sure I cheese it when I solo or run small groups, but thing is damn fun with your friends and no cheese I never liked KF(only even bothered to finish it a couple times), too many things can go wrong if even one person dies...not so forgiving for LFGs VoG stands on its own IMO for being first and still holding in for alot of earlier Guardians I've only done Wrath once on HM and was a full clan run...it felt easy, now it may be harder in LFG but I don't feel like the encounters were all that difficult and I don't feel like the bosses mean much We knew little of VoG before going in, but again it's the first raid...in CE we knew the stakes, Crota was bad ass and needed to be stopped, Oryx was pissed and came to say hi for killing his son(with his own sword), who the hell is Akiss?...some random name that is not even said during the story (Shiro says some about a "Devil Splicer" but that's right at the end)