Ok .. I feel it's necessary that the meaning of an effective counter should be clarified.. obviously thorn is the biggest ticket item in the 'good counter' discussion.. so we'll use that as the example .. but this applies to any weapon you want to talk about.. and far to many people are using silly 'counter' advice. so here we go When discussing how to counter a primary weapon...right of the bat we need to abandon any arguments that include heavy weapons and supers.. but apparently this needs further explanation.. because people still try to argue that if it kills them .. it's a counter. nothing that's designed as an instakill /oneshot and has highly restricted use is not a counter to a primary.. please tell me this is enough of an explanation.. please? Grenades.. again not a valid counter.. you only have 1/2 and there is no pvp game mode that grants constant grenades.. nor is there a mode where you are only fighting one person. again if it's not something you have general access to throughout the match.. it's completely useless advice as a counter for a primary weapon. and that's not even addressing the fact that there's nothing from keeping every single person on the other team wielding 'thorn' (or the last word.. or whatever else you are trying to counter) specials/strafing : on the surface.. sure they are counters.. but they aren't counters for the thorn.. they are standard tactics.. that in no way apply to a specific weapon. they are general use strategies.. any primary vs primary should be utilizing strafing.. and obviously if you are close to someone.. and you have a shotgun or fusion and can land a clean kill. that will kill anyone.. regardless of their weapon. Not saying there aren't arguable counters to specific weapons.. (red death.. thorn counter. clean and simple) just stop listing these.. they're just silly TLDR: supers, heavy, grenades, and arguably straifing/special weapons just aren't good 'counters' and they should stop clogging up what could be valid conversations