I love n like to to both Raids. VOG n CE NORMAL is fun. It is not abt playing with lower level Guardians that causes the pain n frustration. It is their attitude and not being ready with max weapon to play the raid. Just the other day, i was playing with a group for VOG hard n guess what gun they are using?? A Brand New Red Death..just bought from Xur n they are shooting the oracles with it...sigh..