[quote]Warlocks only complain . Every class got stuff from other classes. Warlocks gave the LEAST to other classes while hunters gave the most. He said warlocks gave ignition to others...but thats a lie...hunters had ignitions first in solar 1.0 Every class can go invis or see through walls with truesight thanks to wishender and ratking and the invis fragment which was the void hunter identity. Arc hunter had chain lightning same as arc warlock from season 1 with lethal current. Solar hunter never had any identity so i cant say anything about that. Warlocks just playing the victim role because arc warlock has the best room clearing abilities of any class.[/quote] I would not say that Warlocks gave least and Hunters gave most. In Void, I would set them equal, as both lost the unique abilities of Devour and Invisibility. In solar, Hunters may have had a single way to trigger an ignition in Solar 1.0, but before solar 3.0, it was built into the subclass identity for Warlock. But if you insist, we'll say they're equal so they cancel out. In that case, Warlocks did lose healing grenades and Benevolence to two nerfed versions distributed. Those were also integral to the Well identity. They were in fact basically it's only two benefits besides the super itself. As far as Arc goes, Lethal Current is far incomparable to Arc Web. If you however insist, then those two cancel out. Warlocks also lost Ionic Traces, which have now been nerfed and distributed. I think that counts as a loss as well. Solar Hunter had an identity of knife and gunplay focus, with middle tree being PvE oriented. Warlocks that can properly pinpoint their thoughts and have legitimate concerns are irritated because Arclock can only ad clear. The ad clear is also worse than solar.

Also arc fragments. Melee increases reload speed. Being at crit health recharges abilities faster. Running recharges class ability. Being melee'd increases melee damage. And solar has the burn increases class cooldown and burn kills increases melee cooldown. I am not saying warlock lost nothing. I am saying all classes gave stuff yo other classes.

Yes, and I agree. But not outright abilities such as Healing Grenade and Ionic Traces.

Ionic traces arent an ability. They are the same as wells. And warlock gave buffs...not abilities. Same as hunter and titan.

Only warlocks who don’t want to engage with buildcrafting, or want to focus around their super without spec’ing into it are complaining.

Once again your only point, build crafting, it can only go so far dear Kelly.

That IS THE POINT. Because it is the new reality of the game, as this game becomes more of an MMO and less of a hero shooter. Buildcrafting is a foundational aspect of play in any RPG. It is only an issue in this game, because (for four years) it was reduced to “pick an exotic armor piece, and then run the meta loadout”. Because Bungie did all the work for us, and locked us out of any other choices besides a handful of pre-made builds. So people either never learned to do it, or never developed the desire to do it. [b]Bungie told us going into this overhaul that they weren’t going to do this for us anymore.[/b] That the goal of the overhaul was to make buildcrafting a much larger part of the game. So now if you want a strong build you now have to interact with the game creatively and build it yourself ( or borrow an idea from someone else). You will have far more options that before, and you will be more powerful than before (if you commit to a style of play and build into it). As I said before, Bungie also took this time to fix (remove) the workarounds they put into the game back in year 1 when the desperately needed to get us power, and the game’s design flaws only allowed them to turn up or supers to absurdly broken levels. Many of you got into the habit of using your supers as a main way of doing damage. That is not how D1 played, and it is not how Bungie want the game to play going forward. You can still do that if you want. But you will have to specifically build [i]into[/i] that style of play. However the baseline tuning of the game is that our abilities got a dramatic upgrade in power and uptime, in exchange for a reduction in power and the role that our supers play in the game. Which allows for a lot more interesting play options and build options. Just a few days ago I saw a build that was pretty impressive using the slide melee attack, an arc glaive, and one of the warlock gauntlets. Pretty impressive. But you can’t discover these things if all of one’s energy is going into focusing on what’s been taken away. You can’t see what’s been given in its place. You can be mad and fight Bungie on this, but your odds of winning in the long term are slim. Do you want to be right? Or do you want to have fun playing the game? Your choice.

I have fun with the game already and have plenty of build ideas, but builds can only be as fun as they are viable, as soon as they hit the breaking point it becomes a struggle and it's not fun anymore. Arc warlock has this problem plain as day, void doesn't. Stasis is really good all around, solar is a clear example of this. Pheonix dive, heat rises and rest can only go so far as there preconceived potential. A build adds to it but in the end the build can only add so much, and the glaring flaws of the abilites will still show. Try as you might to push against the wall it won't move. You walked and walked, your build crafting progressed, but eventually you hit the wall of how far it would go and still be fun. You have 2 choices left, make the game more frustrating trying to play what you like, or you can run the stale and boring meta... And the supers argument isnt really valid counting stuff like chaos reach with geomags is no where near as good as cuirass t crash, star eater scales and any hunter super that's a shutdown, synthoceps burning maul and hammer of sol. Chaos reach pales in comparison to all those that are just better. Now that ionic traces don't give super energy it has become worse. I am not arguing with you Kelly as it takes so long to make you realize the developers didn't execute everything perfectly with warlocks tools. Say build crafting constantly and all you want. I have already listed my view point. and I have discovered builds, but they are limited by the horrible abilites they are attached too.

Define “viable”. Bungie made it clear that they wanted each subclass to have its own role. Not to to simply be another flavor of damage. So the notion that each should be equivalent effective in every situation is not consistent with the design philosophy of the game. I’m sorry. What I keep hearing from you is a desire for control: Bungie needs to make their game MY way, and to MY specifications. No. They don’t. What you want are what we’re actually workarounds for major design mistakes they made with the release version of the game.

They don't need to make the game my way... But they need to listen to their player base, if not stuff will go to pot. An example of viable is void warlock and stasis warlock, they are still fun and viable and are examplery. Solar has limited aspects and a horrible class ability that limit the gameplay. The reason being probably because it was all centered around balancing well 🤦‍♂️. And no not each subclass should do the same dmg, but as of right now warlock has one dmg super that does no where near the dmg it should and yet it is a dmg option being chaos reach. And don't talk to me about seperating flavors of dmg, hunters whole subclass is just this dmg, that dmg but purple yata yata. I'm not saying buff it to monstrous levels, I'm just saying give some new pve aspects and buff some ones that need help not rework the entire warlock subclass and system. "Bungie made clear they want each subclass to have its own role" my -blam!-! Ad clear on arc warlock is a ROLL, TRINITY GHOUL, SUNSHOT, GRAVITON LANCE, OSTEO STRIGA NECROTIC GRIPS, ONE VOID ABILITY, INCANDESCENT, STASIS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. THERE IS NO REASON TO BASE A WHOLE SUBCLASS OFF AD CLEAR LIKE ARC, AND TO MAKE IT HAVE MO SURVIVABILITY TOOLS IS MONUMENTAL LEVELS OF STUPIDITY. IF IT REWARDS UNBRIDLED AGGRESSION THEN GIVE IT SOMETHING TO STAY ALIVE. arc warlock is just measly ad clear at this point in a world where every subclass can do ad clear and other stuff, if chaos reach wasn't so bad, if arc warlock didn't have -blam!- survivability, and if it had actually good pve aspects besides electrostatic Mind I wouldn't be here talking about it. Same for solar, half of it's aspects have no use inside pve except for one niche heal that doesn't do -blam!- when stuff like devour or hell just USE WELL.

They did listen to their player base. They just aren’t listening to [i]you…and those who are hopelessly attached to what was a broken version of this game.[/i] Over 1 million people showed up to play PVE yesterday, over a month into the season. Over 450k showed up to play pvp. Bungie is doing WAAY more things right than wrong. The only issue here is you have a very loud minority of players who want to continue to play this game like it’s a hero shooter, despite Bungie making it clear that that is not what they want for their game. I have been trying to explain this to you for weeks, but everything that I say is met with some version of, [i]”Yeah, but….”[/i] I want what I want. Which is your right. But at the end of the day it’s Bungie’s game, and they have a say in what they choose to make, and how they want their game to play. You can choose to fight them on this, but your odds of success are low.

The stable 1 million players, I would ask them how are they satisfied with the game and how long have they played. That's what I would ask.

Smh. Just refuse to accept that others legitimately see things differently.

Yeah people see if it differently I will admit that.

You forgot the “legitimately” part.

Oh yeah, since you want to be a -blam!- about it, some people do have opinions and some people have legitimately the same outlook and opinion, and a company legitimately should listen to the consumer. So good job, by being a -blam!- you have reset us back to square one X)

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

I think I injured your pride a little to make you feel so irritated. Any way you put it, your no flaws outlook won't help, at least I'll admit stuff with humility unlike you...

No. You just made it clear that there is no room for constructive engagement here.

There will never be constructive engagement here because of people like you Kelly. No matter how many good points or facts given people like you will never change their mind.