Although Elisabeth believes the traveler is responsible for sending her back in time and placing her in a time loop, what if it was actually Asher instead.
Now that he is fully integrated into the vex network, he now has full access to their time manipulation technology. Additionally, we've never seen the traveler use time travel before, but we have seen the vex do it multiple times, and in fact, they are partially responsible for the dreaming city time loop.
Furthermore, it makes sense since, as an exo, Elisabeth has a connection to both the vex and the darkness, and thanks to Asher successfully simulating the veil, the vex now have a connection to the darkness (outside the Witness) and can simulate parracausality.
While Asher seemed to lose faith in humanity at the end of the Avalon mission, it's likely he ran millions of simulations and saw there was a very slim chance if the right person, performed the correct actions at the appropriate time the Witness could be defeated and humanity saved. This person could have been Elisabeth, and this would explain why her time loop resets every time she fails, as she didn't perform the correct actions to proceed to the next essential chain of events.
To me this makes much more sense than the traveler, since you'd think the traveler would have chosen a guardian, most likely our guardian, since we single handedly put down every major threat to the traveler.
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6 RepliesSo essentially, this is what you’re saying. Asher Mir sent Elsie back. Elsie gets reset after every bad timeline. So, in this good time line, Elsie leads us to killing the Black Heart. Why? To pull the Witness into a trap set by Asher Mir. I will explain why later. By killing the Black Heart, we do a couple things. We Heal the traveler, letting the Witness enact his plans. We gain both experience and recognition from the Vanguard. We also leave the Sol Divisive with a power Vacuum to be filled by the Witness. Next, on our quest to kill the Black Heart, we start the process of Unifying the Awoken and the Vanguard. We further gain trust by ending the House of Wolves. Had we not been sent on the quest of Killing the Black Heart, this would never have happened. Now recognized by the Vanguard, they send us to help Eris Morne who had just returned from the Moon, and in doing so, we kill Crota. This brings the first (Arguable) Disciple of the Witness to Sol. Oryx. This does a couple things once again. First, it corrupts Riven which is important for so, so many reasons. It also gives us Knowledge of the Hive. Their Story, and the first real glimpse of the Voice behind the Darkness. The Witness. We gain knowledge, which allows us to contend with future problems, like Savathune. So, Riven being Taken, of course ends up corrupting Uldren, who kills Cayde, but only through the Scorn. The scorn are a result because of our absolute obliteration of the House of Devils Splicers, who had discovered Siva. Had the House of Devils survived, the fallen would have unified under them, rather than the House of Kings, who became House Dusk. Furthermore, Eramis would not have went to Europa. House of Kings, then becomes the Scorn, and House Dusk is left in Shambles. So yes, the events of Rise of Iron were important. Had Oryx never arrived in the System, the Red War never would have happened. The Red War and Ghual were important for two reasons. First, it reignited the Traveler, which ended up showing that Sol was alive and breathing, and it gave rise to Caitals Ascendancy. Curse of Osiris is a result of our reputation with the Vanguard, had we not saved Osiris, the Tree of Silver wings may never have happened. Warmind is much the same. Had we not defeated Nokris, Savathune would have never been seen in a bad light by the Witness, which would have never led to her betraying Rhulk and gunning for the Light. Forsaken is a result of Taken King and Rise of Iron. House of Devils is defeated, leading to House of Kings to control House Dusk. They end up as Scorn. Of course, Uldren gets corrupted through his Wish, which leads to the Events of Forsaken, and we end up killing Riven, which leads to today, being the 15th Wish. Of course the seasons are pretty self explanatory. Had we not found the Spider on the Forgotten Shore, we never would have had to deal with Drifter, and Eris would have never had another ally or friend. We never would have freed the Crown, which means we would not have helped Crow, Zavala, and Caital build the trust they need nor heal from their old wounds. Crow never would have ended up going into the Pale Heart. Shadowkeep would not have taken place like it does had we not been there for Eris, thus meaning, she would have become the Witchqueen, and we would never have been notified or guided to Stasis. That would lead to our own eventual corruption. Furthermore, Eris could not help with Season of the Haunted, had we not helped her with her own Nightmares. The seasons are once again, somewhat self Explanatory. We save Saint, which further gains his trust, and we would never have been called to the moon by Savathune to deal with the Wrathborn. We of course commune with the Darkness with the assistance of Eris, and by extension, Mara and Osiris, which leads us to Europa. Had the House Devils never been defeated in The Plague lands, nor had the Scorn been created, Eramis never would have discovered the Darkness, and had she not gone to Europa, we would not have had need to Learn the Darkness, nor would we have a comparison of what to do, should we have learned. Furthermore, because of past events, we have long standing relationships with Eris, Drifter and Elsie. Season of the Hunt would not have brought the Crow back to the Vanguard, and he would be stuck with Spider. He would not have saved Zavala leading to war between the Cabal and Vanguard. Had we not saved the Fallen from house Salvation, we would not be allied with the House Light. Finally, all of the events with the Hive, Dreaming City, and Osiris would not have led to the eventual removal of Savathunes Worm. We would not have learned that Savathune had moved the Veil and thus protected the Traveler had this not been the case. The Witch Queen would never have happened. We never would have Discovered the Witness or his first Disciple making the Witnesses Army all the stronger. We also never would have found the 15th wish, nor would the events previous events have transpired as they did because she never would have seen the light as a solution. We would be underprepared for the Witness had it not been for Savathune. Crow never would have learned from Saladin, nor would the relationship between the Cabal and the Vanguard be as strong as it is had it not been for Crows mistake. Haunted would never play out like it did, and Calus would either be dead because of previous events, or he would become a Disciple, making them all the stronger. We never would have needed to resurrect Osiris, never leading to us going to Neomuna for the Veil, and finally, had we not been told of the Black Heart, our long standing Relationship with Elsie, Mara, Osiris, and Ana would never have led to us helping with restoring the Warmind, thus removing the Gambit that Xivu Arath had over our heads. The Traveler would never had retreaded into the upper Atmosphere, and thus the Last City would have been destroyed by the war. We go to Neomuna, learn of Strand, and lose to Calus, but weaken the Witnesses forces. This puts the Witness in a Gambit himself, actually, as now we know where he is, and can plan Accordingly. No longer is humanity taking a ride. We are the ones driving forward. Defiance, of course, further weakens the Witnesses forces, and helps us protect the people. Not super important though. We do deal with Nezerac though. It also gives us insight into Asher Mirs plans and predictions within the Vex Network, and furthers our understanding of the Veil and Vex and Witness. Deep, Witch, and Wish all have us preparing for our fight with the Witness, but also dealing with the final Disciple of the Witness, being Xivu Arath. We made her an eventual Non Player, leading to Wish, which has us finally finding a way to follow the Witness. Season of the Wish is a result of a multitude of Story lines that have all created an interconnected web surrounding the Guardian. Our Guardian. Had it never been for Elsie, the events of the story would never have played out as they have. If your theory about Asher is right, that means that Asher has outsmarted the Witness, Savathune, and any opposing force within the solar system.
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1 ReplyOne problem. If it was Asher, then how could the Traveler have done the burst that sent Elsie back in time at the end of the Dark Future lore book? We know so little about the origins of the Traveler or even its full capabilities. It could have time travel abilities for all we know. We know that the Vex have time travel tech, making your thought definitely possible. Perhaps the Vex and the Traveler’s origins are somehow linked or entwined. Either way, how was it that Asher set the loop when it was the Traveler that bursted Elsie into a new timeline? But, why would the Traveler do that if it meant to destroy its own survival within that timeline? Further pushing your thought that Asher was the one to put Elsie in the loop. I don’t know.
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1 ReplyDoes Asher still have his Ghost?
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Edited by Shockwave 989: 1/16/2024 7:24:12 PMConsidering Asher only gained deeper access to the Vex Network within the Avalon mission thanks to us and that such an expedition likely never occurred in previous loops (Thanks to the forces of Eris Morn/Savathûn trapping the Vex, likely due to Quria) its highly unlikely the result of Asher Mir. Though I am curious as to how Bungie might treat Asher moving forward, considering a full integration would mean Asher as an individual ceases to be. Edit: Still more than likely the Traveler though, which considering Osiris himself hasn’t questioned the explanation of I’d lean towards. [quote]”We, constrained to linear time, do not have the ability to learn from our future mistakes. You, however… Not to put the burden of all this on you, but… it feels as though the Traveler has a plan for you. We just can’t see it yet.”[/quote]
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35 RepliesThe Vex don’t time travel like Elsie does. The Dreaming City isn’t in normal space, hence why Quria (whose paracausal) was able to manipulate it. Elsie goes back in time and changes things. The Vex do not. If they could, they’d go back as far as they could and stop their enemies from gaining power. Kill the Witness people before they merge, kill the Hive before they get Worms. They don’t even go back to undo our victories. So their idea of time manipulation is at odds with what Elsie is actually do. That’s a fundamental difference that can’t be ignored. Her connection to the Darkness is why she is a good candidate over a Guardian. Darkness is consciousness and memories. Well if you’re looping back in time, what’s more key to retaining memories? Light or Dark? Which is more important to manipulate events? Extra lives or memories? Then there is the Traveler being aware of future events. It made a Ghost for Crow at the same time he was just becoming Uldren. It knows the future, or at least the potential futures. It knows key people had the potential to do right and it kid the pathway for the winning scenario. Elsie is only sent so far back as to not prevent any major disaster besides the Red War and even then, she doesn’t. This shows the entity behind the time manipulation wants the whole chain of events to happen up until the point where the Traveler/Gardner itself is endangered. The Collapse, it survives. The Witness entering, it does not. So it’s a better line of reasoning for the Traveler to be manipulating time than the Vex. Because so far it only benefits the Traveler/Gardner. Having Light win the battle between the two doesn’t help the Vex. Cause we’ve also gained the power of Darkness. We are now a greater threat to them than before and with fewer distractions.
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1 ReplyInteresting theory. However, as to "why not send the guardian back instead of Elsie?" Elsie was around at the time this saga began. We were not. Her body is not being sent back, her experiences are. Each time she wakes up at the beginning with new knowledge of the last attempt. I don't buy the "The guardian is the strongest light bearer ever' hypothesis. I think Elsie, the Drifter,, Ikora, Saladin, and many others would spank the Guardian. But do try to remember, the Guardian came into this saga in the middle and we are just trying to piece together a history that we were dead for.
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Impossible.................................
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Edited by jhermannITJ: 1/16/2024 7:12:11 AMI did a post about it a little bit ago. [url]https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/263597818?sort=0&page=0[/url] It's Maya Sundaresh... it's the "Echo" program. The drawer is filled with forks. She had an entire pantry full of them... You might say she had a cache of forks.