Holy shit, youre game's point system is just eye opening. Titans as a whole got the short stick. Though I do make due with what I got. Am titan btw.

I admire your attempts to make a valid, logical argument. Let me offer a counter-point. Your argument (Sunbreakers are not OP) rests on the premise that the class, aside from the super and super supporting perks, is not competitive because of a lack of decent abilities/perks that aren't related to the super. Therefore, sunbreaker is not OP because the hard to counter super is balanced out by lackluster abilities/perks not related to the super. I will now offer my counter-argument, which will demonstrate why your premise is false: My premise: Sunbreaker does not have lackluster abilities/perks; in fact, its abilities/perks are above average. Evidence that supports my premise: [b]Grenades:[/b]As stated by others in this thread, all three grenades can be competitive. One hit kills in the form of fusion grenades (which are not incredibly hard to hit if you play with them enough, I main a warlock), solid area denial (mainly in corridors/high-traffic areas) in its thermite grenade, and reliable bounce-around-corners/splash damage/minor DOT damage in its incendiary grenade. The only way you could reasonably propose that this selection isn't competitive is if you believe bolt grenades are the only viable competitive option. This is a difficult point to argue for, especially given the recent bolt grenade nerf, and I truly believe that it is easy to make the minor adaptations needed to make these grenades competitive. Even fusion grenade alone is enough to make it competitive, as one hit kills are hard to undervalue, especially given that they explode quickly enough after being attached to an enemy to prevent them killing you from full health with anything but a sniper/shotgun (and if you were in shotgun range, you can at least trade with them and get a post-Mort with fusion grenades, something a lot of grenades can't do against a full health enemy). [b]Melee:[/b] I don't have a lot of experience here, but it seems to me that the Sunbreaker melee perks combined with poor titan melee range offer the best evidence for your premise. At worst, they seem at least on par with Striker melee abilities, perhaps better given the ability to reduce its cooldown (allowing more melee damage overall) and reduce target's defense (clearly not overpowered but not useless either, more situational than anything else). All in all, below average in terms of other class's melee perks. [b]Non-super related abilities/perks:[/b] This is where I believe your argument fails the most to support your premise. Fleetfire allows bonus agility and reload upon kills with your sunstrike (which can have its cool down reduced), any grenade, and super. Agility is something the Titan is known for either sacrificing or making sacrifices for and makes the Titan's tankiness even deadlier. Reload speed is often undervalued as it doesn't affect time to kill directly, but faster reload literally allows for more time spent shooting, which is a good thing. Agility (a stat that usually must be sacrificed for other stats) or reload speed (basically getting a free weapon perk) alone would be hard to argue for, but getting both on any of your ability kills is only underwhelming if you are of the mindset that anything that doesn't directly increase damage is bad. This is a competitive perk, especially given fusion grenades 1 hit kill ability and the other 2 grenades usefulness at hitting wide areas and mopping up enemies. The existence of cauterize is the biggest supporter of my arguments. Free, close to instantaneous health regeneration on any of your ability kills is -very- good. This kind of perk essentially makes things like bladedancer and hammer of sol the powerhouse supers that they are, and the sunbreaker is unique in that it gets it on melee and grenade kills as well. This isn't life support either, it is guaranteed health regen on ability kills. Voidwalker wishes it had this, it has to use one of its melee perks for just melee kill health regen. No other class has this kind of implict health regen ability built into its skill tree and if you're a sunbreaker and aren't taking advantage of grenade kill (see fusion grenade) + cauterize then you're probably doing it wrong. Yes, titan melee range is worse than other classes but that doesn't make it unusuable and you can have that ability up quicker with stoke the forge. Titans can now get bonus agility, reload speed -and- health regen on sunbreaker ability kills. And that's not competitive? In conclusion, if you can agree with my points here, then my argument succeeds in proving your premise false, thus invalidating your argument. Sunbreaker super is too strong and is not balanced by a subpar kit. Its kit has some very good perks and isn't non-competitive enough to justify the sheer power its super has.

Disclaimer: I suck at PvP (Or at least I think I do). That doesn't mean I can't be logical and present a valid argument based on basic facts. Honestly, HoS's brokenness doesn't really affect me because the only time I really PvP is to do the daily for marks. That being said... It strikes me as odd that people keep using the argument that Sunbreaker perks are weak so that makes it okay to massively imbalance their super. Stick with me here, but can we try comparing the class's supers for a second? Tell me if you notice anything off, and I'll try to stay unbiased in the descriptions. Warlock (My old main): Nova Bomb (1-shot massive AOE, can be upgraded for shorter CD and better speed/range/radius, 1-use nonmobile) Radiance (Spam grenades, 1-shot melee on non-armor'd enemies. Resurrect self - useless in PvP) Stormtrance (Sithlordy goodness. Mobile, capable of as many kills as HoS. Not a 1-shot outside of Landfall on non-armored targets in close range) Hunter (My new main. Nightstalker<3): Golden Gun (1-shot, 3 charges (Celestial Nighthawk excluded), can overpenetrate and kill multiple with one shot, can cause explosions of killed enemies, no super armor.) Arc Blades (1-shot melee, multiple charges, super armor, perk-able for range attack/aoe melee attack/invis, perkable for health regen) Shadowshot (1-shot if it hits a target, small hitbox, tether increases damage taken, semi-blinds enemy, suppresses abilities. Can perk for 3 shots) Titan Fist of Havoc (1-shot massive AOE in melee range, can be perked for a large ground DOT, can be perked for super armor) Ward of Dawn (Bubble, can be broken, can increase damage and give damage reduction) - doesn't really fit into this conversation. Hammer of Sol (1-shot, many uses, mobile, can track enemies, can explode enemies, can regen health, gives super armor) Now out of these, only one super can 1-shot more than 3 times from range while remaining mobile, regenerating health on kills, tracking the enemy, and granting free super armor. The only super that comes even close to HoS's power is Shadowshot and that's almost entirely due to it's ability to shut down things like HoS. But just saying "Too OP" is unproductive. What we need are solutions that actually balance the super while keeping Sunbreaker viable. Possible solutions: 1) Establish HoS's role as a "Tank" in that it can do tons of damage and take tons of damage but becomes less mobile to do so. HoS could either apply a base slow to the Titan, similar to relics in the Restorative Mind strike (though not to the same extent) or make it incapable of jumping. This gives real conterplay to Sunbreakers in that "You should run" is an incredibly viable strategy. 2) Reduce the number of hammers HoS can throw, bringing it more in-line with Golden Gun while retaining the unique "tank" flavor of Titan and retaining mobility. 3) Bring in valid countermeasures for other classes to use against HoS. This includes: Requiring 2 hammers to kill Nova Bomb users (unsure if currently does), Golden Gun one-shotting (At least on headshot. I'm still unsure why they don't allow it to do precision damage :l), Shadowshot auto-tethering if directly hitting a target. Striker already one-shots HoS I believe and can't be one-shotted mid-FoH if perked, and Defender and Sunsinger are in need of some major help to become really PvP viable outside of things like Control. 4) Reduce super armor. Make it easier to kill with things like Sniper headshots or good dodging n gunning. 5) Remove tracking and reduce explosion radius while increasing travel speed, making it similar to Golden Gun requiring decent skill to aim and kill. With just one of these, it'd make HoS much more bearable and less of an "Oh, you won simply by supering, good for you".

You're practically invincible with the right sunbreaker perks on so yeah it's definitely OP. No super has ever been this OP in PvP lol

Just a question.... has anyone just tried jumping around. most people are retarded and cant aim the hammer fast enough and you get a 50/50 chance they will miss them all. BAM shotty to the face.

Admits calling community stupid Says he will do it again Expects community to listen Somethings wrong here. No matter how valid your argument is, you lose your audience as soon as they know you look down at them. While it's OK to have these thoughts, you never let it show.

What is TL:DR?

I main a warlock and have used all classes, and I think the hammer of sol is fine how it is. They aren't impossible to kill while in their super either, you just cant slide or blink towards them with a shotgun...

I don't think the HoS is overpowered at all. If anything, the stormcaller is, I have wiped out teams with way more ease. Don't have to aim, just hold down the hit button and run around, I've killed multiple titans with their hammers in hand. Does noone see this? It's too easy, keep whining about hammers while you ALL get zapped to dust.

What does it mean to be a Titan? As a Titan, you are a part of the City - in a way no Warlock or Hunter could understand. The dream of the City rests upon our shoulders. To keep the City and her Walls warm throughout the long night.

Bungie clearly stated that HoS was a super that you see and back off from weeks before ttk came out. If people fight this thing without a mentality akin to fighting a scorpion tank then they're fools

I tend to get one shot by Golden Guns on my sunbreaker when I activate the super. Is it because I run a max recovery build instead of a max armor one?