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Edited by bobswerski:
1/29/2016 6:35:55 PM
1
[quote] Dude, I'm not a PvP pro, but at the height of Thorn, even *I* could counter it....with a nerfed Vex no less. Look, I get it was strong and OP, but a massive ton of hate just purely came from people not being willing to counter it properly.[/quote]
Thorn is a primary weapon with a guaranteed 2 shot kill with only ONE headshot. Also kills with only 3 [u]bodyshots[/u] - [i]Without hitting a [u]single[/u] headshot you could kill 3 guardians without reloading.[/i] High AA, and with perks the range was on par with scout rifles, some snipers, and was sufficient for 90% of encounters in this game. And oh by the way it also shut down your targets health regen (devastating to us warlocks), the tick gave away their position at all times (wallhax), all while creating a disorienting green field of view effect. That's broken in so many ways it's still baffling that anyone actually tried to defend it. But I'm getting sidetracked.
[quote]On PvP - what is your solution then? As far as I can tell you either get never ending nerfs due to being able to bring in PvE weapons or you have the separate playlists I mentioned.[/quote]
The imaginary perfect world answer is to only nerf what is clearly problematic, and do so in a subtle manner that does not leave the gun useless, like the high ROF pulse rifles, which still work just fine. But that's not necessarily realistic (see: medium ROF pulse rifles) and even when it's clearly warranted (coughThorncough) the selfish will always complain about how unfair their crutch being taken away is.
A more realistic solution is to continue the progress Bungie has made in completely separating PvP nerfs from PvE effectiveness. If there's no or minimal crossover, we get away from the pointless "PvP kidz are ruining it for the rest of us" flame wars and can approach things separately and more specifically.
Also, by having separate playlists, the truly skilled players (not the ones who pubstomp to feel better about their sad lives) will keep their edge gear and effort to that list and we reduce the aspect of "well it killed me 20 times or this guy went 35/2 so it must be OP."
[quote]On Nightfalls, I excluded them from the argument because ANYTHING you used with a burn was by default "OP". I solo'ed the Nexus mind (Sekrion - my first ever Nightfall solo in Y1) with Aetheon's Epilogue, Praedyth's Revenge and Truth (obviously a void burn Nightfall). Are you going to make the argument that those weapons were "OP" too? I would hope not as I believe you would be the first person I would literally see make that argument for those weapons. Nightfall made [b]EVERYTHING[/b] OP therefore Nightfalls does not belong in the "what is OP" argument in my mind.[/quote]
It still doesn't work that way. That's too large/important a part of the game to exclude. More importantly, you're missing the point. The fact that I was able to solo Valus was not the issue. The problem is that it was trivial to do so. The Y2 NF still has burns and we still have non-primary weapons with elements (plus Zhalo) for that matter, so it's not like a direct comparison is impossible. A solar burn and the sleeper sim would be powerful too but I'm pretty sure I would actually have to shoot from more than one spot and maybe kill at least an add or two before Valus was dead.
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I'm not defending Thorn. I'm saying it was not this unbeatable nightmare people claim it to be. I have 1 and used it in Y1. I also countered it in Y1. OP, yes in PvP. But it did not make PvP unplayable for me anyway. Nightfall was not the core of the game. It was a once a week event. A burn effect should not mean a weapon should be nerfed or not as powerful due to a once a week event (and it wasn't even Solar every week to stick with that example). So no, I still can't agree there. Also, it sounds like you're still saying that since I could solo Sekrion as I mentioned above, those weapons I mentioned should be considered way OP too? It wasn't the weapons, it was the burn in most cases. One of the reasons you're not as effective in a burn scenario this year is that you only do x2 burn damage now, where as you used to do x3. The AI still does x3 though. See what they did there? It sounds like we may have to agree to disagree which is fine. But I do appreciate the feedback and the conversation we had staying classy (something rare on these forums in general but this thread seems to have stayed in tact).
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Edited by bobswerski: 1/29/2016 7:40:49 PM[quote]I'm not defending Thorn. I'm saying it was not this unbeatable nightmare people claim it to be. I have 1 and used it in Y1. I also countered it in Y1. OP, yes in PvP. But it did not make PvP unplayable for me anyway.[/quote] I didn't really think you were defending Thorn, but it was a convenient example of how there are situations in which something absolutely needs to be nerfed, and that's all there is to it. [quote]Nightfall was not the core of the game. It was a once a week event. A burn effect should not mean a weapon should be nerfed or not as powerful due to a once a week event (and it wasn't even Solar every week to stick with that example). So no, I still can't agree there.[/quote] it's not the core of the game, no. But neither is it trivial, and the NF simply cannot be ignored if you want to take a serious look at weapon performance. [quote]Also, it sounds like you're still saying that since I could solo Sekrion as I mentioned above, those weapons I mentioned should be considered way OP too? It wasn't the weapons, it was the burn in most cases.[/quote] I'm absolutely not saying that in any way. My exact words were: [i]"The fact that I was able to solo Valus [u]was not the issue[/u]. The problem is that [u]it was trivial to do so[/u]."[/i] I added the underline but otherwise I can't put it any more clearly than that. [quote]One of the reasons you're not as effective in a burn scenario this year is that you only do x2 burn damage now, where as you used to do x3. The AI still does x3 though. See what they did there?[/quote] That is true. Taking it into account when designing new weapons (or redesigning old ones) is a good idea. That said, I still could have killed Valus using a single ammo synth and only reloading one additional time. I've not had an opportunity to try Valus NF with solar burn and sleeper, maybe he would melt as fast, IDK, I am merely theorizing based on what experience I do have (heroic strike only, obviously no burn there). [quote] It sounds like we may have to agree to disagree which is fine. But I do appreciate the feedback and the conversation we had staying classy (something rare on these forums in general but this thread seems to have stayed in tact).[/quote] Sounds like Reddit, lol. Here I keep it as classy (or not as classy) as the other person's behavior warrants.
