The problem with King's Fall is not the mechanics (sort of) In Vault of Glass and Crota's End, 1 or 2 great players could drag a whole team through without much of a problem. Key responsibilities were limited to one of two players only. In King's Fall the mechanics dictate that most players have an essential part to play in the raid. What this has done is expose players who aren't up to the task. Bad players were around in year 1 but there was no spotlight on them due to the good players getting the job done. In year 2's first raid we have seen players who are guilty of the following: - not being able to jump correctly - not understanding basic class perks and what they do - not understanding basic real world concepts like counter-clockwise - not being able to play in a team especially during the totems The mechanics are not the problem, the problem is players who aren't good enough and/or don't put the time in needed to get better. Whilst Destiny is more friendly to the average gamer that some games there is an end-game for a reason. Raids in Destiny are the highest tier of PVE challenge and therefore need everyone to be on point. The biggest problem in King's Fall in general though is truly awful loot and gear that isn't worth the grind.

View from a casual gamer..... got into a bit of a rant, TL:DR at bottom As said, I would class myself as a casual gamer these days, mainly due to work, children, wife etc but still try to get on when I can, I am by no means a hardcore raider but to be fair, mechanics in this game are not hard to understand or get used to after a couple of attempts. The reason I feel that there are definite mixed feelings about KF compaired to VOG or CE are mechanics related, but not because they are particularly difficult to understand (for most people!) but more that the mechanics themselves are VERY unforgiving. During VOG or CE a new/inexperienced/downright awful team member making a simple mistake (or even an experienced one - we all make mistakes!) was not an automatic wipe for the most part, sure in some sections made it more difficult but as a team you could work to recover from it. The abyss for example, how many hunters ended up soloing that for the team when they couldn't all make it through. KF however, very harsh and unforgiving for even the slightest mistake, timing error, death etc... in my experience (which, to be fair is limited to raiding groups from LFG - which is fine, sure there's the odd group you slowly back away from, but the most part been in some great fireteams - this may be different with a constant group with tight communication) for the most part it is VERY difficult to recover from, leading to just wiping. My personal view is this has lead to two things: elitism - high level requirements (which to be fair - their group, their rules) as people want an experience guarantee and not to waste their time; Fear - newer players having bad experiences in LFG, either never finding a group due to lower light, or when they do, cocking up as they don't really know what their doing, to scared to say so and even if they do, not having it explained to them properly and eventually the team disbands out of frustration or they get kicked. They never get out of this cycle. This - combined with frustrating loot drops - today received a harrowed chestpiece at 310 on my warlock.....cheers! - I feel have lead to people not experiencing the same joy and sense of accomplishment as they did in VOG or CE, when Oryx floats of into space, you just feel relief that the job is done - that is if they ever get there in the first place! TL:DR - Mechanics not difficult, just unforgiving causing a bigger split in the raid player base and to top it of, shitty loot

It's no fun to do, and it's no fun to loot. Double RNG killed it. RNG for what you get, then RNG for the level you get it at. It sucks. I haven't missed a week of hard mode with my 3 characters. I still don't have a 320. Only one 320 ghost. Only one 320 helmet.

1000% agree , I have not even attempted the raid simply bcus it doesn't look fun. I too miss run&gun Crota and even vault of glass. VOG was refreshing to play again to get the NTTE. See my thing is I HATE jumping on crap from pit fall to Mario then you add in the other mechanics of the raid and it just doesn't look fun... just like skolas. I never got my year one emblem bcus skolas took forever with the wrong team so I just stopped doing it. there will probably be another emblem or year 2 thing and I won't get it unless new guys are running the raid last minute to get the emblem just to be in the year 2 club.Bungie really missed the fun mark on this one

The problem all of you got is that you play with new people every time. Get a 6-10 man group, then you will learn to succeed together everytime. Sure you can take in a random or two once in a while, but if you want to get through quick, stick with the same group.

I actually enjoyed most of the raid

Don't bitch now, because when bungie releases a new raid with fewer mechanics, you will be pissed