Dear Bungie Balance Team,
Ever since I started to really pay attention to your patch notes around weapons and classes and perks, etc, I've really become intrigued at how your design philosophies change the way I play and make me become a better player. On the other side of the spectrum, I've also learned how much of a complete chore it is to read your patch notes and find that the next cool and unique thing has been guttered and neutered to the point of no recovery. Your history has been a rather interesting one.
I can think way back to the first couple of patches. The first one was about the Vex Mythoclast. It was a gun of immense power and precision, able to annihilate people in 3-4 shots in very quick amounts of time. It was a very powerful gun, and did it deserve to be fixed up to be more fair? Absolutely it did. Then there was the Suros Regime, a gun that Xur sold in the first couple weeks of Destiny's life span and it was a very popular weapon. I think it was popular for a multitude of reasons; one of them being that it was one of the first exotic weapons readily available to the masses who had amassed enough Strange Coins to purchase it, but also because it was just such a generously powerful auto rifle. As if it wasn't already powerful just because the auto rifle class was powerful, it had the best-in-class magazine, best-in-class impact rate to rate of fire, and it had a signature exotic perk that made the last few bullets of the magazine do an upward of 2-300 damage per head shot in the Crucible. Did it deserve a re-balancing? I'd say so, yeah. Did auto rifles need some fine tuning? Perhaps they did.
Another example I can think of isn't even a bad one. Pulse rifles were the laughing stock of the game; completely incapable of dishing out any signs of worthy damage both in PvP and PvE, completely not worth the time you invested in using them. This gun type was the gun definition of putting yourself and your team at a disadvantage using it. You buffed them. You buffed them pretty good too, giving them a massive 9.7% increase in damage and skyrocketing them into mass popularity. Although they weren't quite able to stand up to the hand cannon's massive power levels, they were still quite good, all around weapons. Hell, you even nerfed hand cannons with varied degrees of success here and there. Eventually you had to re-nerf pulse rifles down a bit after the hand cannon nerf so they were more in-line with other guns; that update also included a generous auto rifle buff that launched them into a spot where they've been in for about a year now, somewhat usable and fun.
What I'm getting at here Bungie, is that there's a weird trend with your balance updates that worry me. You see, it appeared at first, especially with the Vex Mythoclast hot fix early in 2014, that almost all of these balance changes have been thanks to a distinct cry for them in just one single game type. At least half of your game is PvE and the other half is PvP. The funny part of it is that you only seem to balance the guns and classes and damage and perks based on the PvP side of the game. This is not surprising to me but it worries me a lot because the game is more than just a multiplayer PvP shooter. There's things I like to do by myself against the minions of the darkness that your patches affect. To continue using the Vex example, it seemed like you were very content with letting the Vex Mythoclast be that strong and powerful in PvE, yet the small community of people that complained and cried for nerfs over it in PvP, you balanced the whole game around those cries.
Now before you get up and write me off: I absolutely do believe that some of those nerfs (Vex Mythoclast, Suros Regime, auto rifles, Gjallarhorn, etc) did deserve to be nerfed both in PvP and PvE. I'm able to look at those guns objectively and determine that they were game breaking on both sides of the spectrum. However, what I don't understand is the other things. The other things like the shotgun nerfs and the sniper rifle nerfs.
WARNINGS, MAY TRIGGER YOU: In my opinion nerfing shotguns and snipers was not needed IN PvE. You buffed shotgun damage in PvE before, and not PvP, which was nice, then you nerfed it again, and now it's just there. You just recently nerfed sniper damage in PvP which in turn resulted in a PvE damage change as well and that's what I don't understand. You've clearly shown in the past that you are capable of buffing and nerfing weapons, classes, and perks for just one or the other side of the game. You were very easily able to buff shotguns by 100% in House of Wolves for just PvE enemies (aka minions of the darkness) while leaving PvP completely untouched. So why aren't you doing that now? Why aren't you doing that for your current updates? Why didn't you sit down and look at how it might affect stuff in PvE and nerf them accordingly for PvP only?
Maybe you have, and I'm just talking out of my ass, but it feels like, seems like, and looks like you actually don't care about your PvE balance and decided to balance your game around one aspect rather than both. You have 2 sides of a coin and you decided that Heads is the most important side and then erased Tails from the equation (Heads being PvP and Tails being PvE). This behavior has shown for the past year that it doesn't matter how things react in PvE, if they're ridiculous in PvP, they're going to be nerfed everywhere. It feels like you don't care anymore... and that makes me sad.
I know balancing a game is incredibly difficult, far more difficult than I could ever imagine and I don't know the first thing about balance. I do just want to say I believe personally that abandoning Tails makes the coin into a product that nobody wants. If Heads is too important to the point where Tails doesn't even show up anymore, why bother even making Tails, why not just make Heads and make it a one-sided coin? It might as well just be PvP, not PvE.
I just wanted to vent to you. I respect you guys and your work, and I will always look at your game balances objectively. I just hope you do too for both sides of the coin. Tails is just as important as Heads on a penny, Bungie.
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5 RepliesThat wall would make trump proud.
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1 ReplyEveryone is entitled to their opinion. Wow you really wanted to convey yours It's too bad that you have that much to write about. Play something else.
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2 RepliesParagraphs are too long and too many. Figure out your point and learn how to convey it without writing a book. -constructive criticism
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1 ReplyWelcome to the wall of text
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11 RepliesIt was inevitable. The game is 2 years old. As the time continues, the majority of the playerbase shifts. There is just so much PvE people can take without new content. They drift off to other games. Whereas PvP can be replayed over and over again. These players tend to stick around longer. It is obvious that Rise of Iron is going to cater to the PvP community. They even added private matches to help maintain their player base. Sweats are now easily setup. Sure, some PvE players will return for RoI. But they will be gone by Christmas.
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I enjoy obtaining a legendary weapon with subpar rolls, deleting it for vault space, then reading the latest patch notes informing me that I deleted what might now be considered a god roll! [spoiler]HOLY F--KING TLDR[/spoiler]
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1 ReplyDoes anybody really care if their weapon doesn't do as well in PVE anymore? You're playing against the AI; it's not even hard. Buffs and nerfs to specific weapon types don't really affect PVE in any substantial way.
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1 ReplyPvp is the longevity of any long term game.
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This gave me the feels. As in I feels the exact same way. Bravo. Too bad bungie doesn't care about us as much as the nerf herders
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1 ReplyI read every single word, and I agree with you 100%. Well done.
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... *slowly starts to clap* True. Every. Fcking. Word. Thanks for reminding me about that PvE specific HoW buff.. it IS possible and they just don't do it. I can't stand it.. why is my sniper max ammo 17 WITH boots? That's pathetic.
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Well done.
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Standing ovation bud! I could not agree more. And if you're wrong, well, I'll stand beside you and be wrong as well! I salute the PvP-ers, they are generally exceptional gamers, and I have no issue with their claims on PvP balance, but PvP does NOT equal PvE. Lets keep them separate... and get dedicated servers for those guys already!
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PvE is totally unbalanced. The guardian always wins. PvP is much more balanced. Sometimes guardians lose.
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Yeah using an AR in PVE sucks
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2 RepliesEdited by Erijian: 9/12/2016 9:02:52 PMBlack Hammer, Gjallarhorn, Ice Breaker, and the original Hand Cannon nerfs were because of PvE. It's not much, but Bungie does nerf for PvE. There's also flat damage buffs weapons get against minions of the darkness, which normally offset PvP nerfs or even make them stronger than they were. Bungie messes up more often than not, but not everything is handled poorly or needed because of PvP.
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The worst part about their weapon tuning is that they aren't very good at splitting the difference between PvE and PvP. Hell if someone who literally only plays PvP cries for a nerf, then it'll screw the PvE players, and vice versa. It's like a never ending cycle of going through nerfs and buffs because they can't find a balance between the two play styles. I don't blink shotgun dregs, so I don't NEED nerfs to those in PvE. However I also don't spam snipers or coordinate with teammates on super uses, so I also don't NEED nerfs to those in PvP. It's a matter of who they listen to, how that person plays the game, and how they figure out a "solution" which, like I said, eventually ends up in the endless cycle of -blam!-ity weapon tweaks. Hopefully at somepoint Bungie will find that sweet spot for PvE and PvP tuning.
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2 Replieslets all take the time to remember the outrageous lie they got caught out on. All on weapons buffs, who remembers the 4-7% buffs they promised, then it turned out to be someones typo, and it was 0.04-0.07% buff, like really? What was the point of that?
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1 ReplyYou start by saying it's a "chore to read your patch notes" then you literally wrote an essay.
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I haven't really noticed a change in PvE. I go pew with my sniper and things die. Idk PvE is pretty easy to begin with so then again I guess I don't think/worry about it.
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Edited by HugoDeuxT: 9/12/2016 7:19:25 PMWe should make changes to sniper rifles. They will now shoot large teddy bears which delicately finesse your enemies.
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Edited by an engram full of bees: 9/12/2016 7:08:11 PMThought this post was gonna end with "Nerf fusion rifles" 😂
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2 RepliesThe ONLY thing that should've been nerfed in PvE was MAYBE Gjallarhorn. Separating weapons between PvE and PvP is what should've been done from the start.
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I don't agree with their idea that guns should be the same in PvE and PvP. Those are 2 different game modes and should be balanced as such.
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If this were 9 months ago, I would have agreed with you. But the last three weapon rebalancing patches have shown a great deal of awareness of the impact of weapons changes on PVE. 1. Most weapon (and class ability) changes have been either global buffs.....or PVE specific buffs. 2. The vast majority of nerfs have either been to weapons that aren't used in PVE...or to aspect of weapons performance that aren't critical in PVE. (Who uses a rocket launcher with no tracking and "Grenades and Horseshoes" in PVE?!?!?!) 3. There were a number of potentially game-breaking issues in PVP that needed to be dealt with. The only nerfs that I think were ill-advised for PVE were the nerfs to firebolts...and ***potentially*** the increased flinch with the use of sniper rifles. (But snipers arent' going to so critical---it sounds----in the end game of RoI as they were in TTK.) The real problem with Bungie's sandbox management is that they're trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. They are trying to take a game where people move nearly as fast and unpredictably as Titanfall.....with a weapon system that is like Call of Duty/Battlefield..... ...and giving them Halo maps and trying to balance it all around a Haloesque primary weapon time to kill. ..and it simply isn't working. ..and I think Bungie is starting to realize this. The vast majority of weapon tweaks last weaks were buffs and other adjustments that will allow certain weapons to kll faster. Other than snipers, the only nerfs were range nerfs, not damage nerfs. So this predominantly PVE-player doesnt' see the picture as being nearly as dire as you're painting. We are in a VASTLY better spot right now than we were back in January.
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1 ReplyStep one to Proper game balance is knowing the game by Actually playing it on a normal basis. Just listening to the out cry of the masses is no way to really grasp the severity (or lack there of) of a flaw/feature on a project.