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10/1/2010 4:55:32 PM
48
Arena Scoring...FAIL
I get it. Bungie wants to have Social and Ranked again, thats cool. But really? Arena is ranked with numbers that dont make sense? Sweet.
So, you get a higher score by getting more kills for the team and helping out. Okay. The more kills you get, the higher the score. The more assists you get, the higher the score. Okay.
Then tell me how this makes sense...
1585- 20 kills, 1 assist, 14 deaths
1487- 9 kills, 4 assists, 3 deaths
Now, I could be wrong, but I know Im not. The 9-4-3 needs to have a better score here, because a looooooooot of people care about KdR. And now, Bungie is tossing that 'need' out the window. Because the 20-14 is a KdR of 1.43 and the KdR of the 9-3 is 3. So tell me why the player with more than double the KdR gets less points (not to mention 4x the assists)?
And I know kids will come on here and say 'Id rather go 20-14.' Well, thats you. Tell you what, we can play a 1v1. You go 20-14 and Ill go 9-3. I will win EVERY TIME. So, with this, it means that the 9-3 contributes more to the team than the 20-14 player.
So basically, in order to get a good score in Arena, you have to rush out and get kills, which chances more death. But Bungie doesnt care about that, as long as you get as many kills as you can in the game.
So dumb.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tyqae Get a 24/23? I'm not happy that you died 23 times. Cause if I'm having a bad game and do die like 8 times with less than 8 kills, we're in trouble. You may have a +1, but at least I only died 8 times out of 50. I'd rather lose knowing I didn't even die a fifth of the total.[/quote] Your response should have been just this, because this makes sense. And just so everyone knows, I dont sit in a corner with a shotgun. I hate that. I just stay back and put shots on whoever I see. Thats what a support player does. It just sucks to get a crappy ranking because of the messed up scoring system.
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I do believe the simplest arguement he's making, without blantantly saying it, is that he is better than the player who goes 24-23 or whatever. Most people can go into a rush mode and generally equal to about 50-50. The sheer numbers game says if I run at you, die, respawn and do it again I can probably kill you the second time around. I run at you grenade til death and a teammate shows up (or jetpacks) and takes the kill/s. I get 1-4 assists..for what? Running at you and dieing with grenades..lot of skill there. Now ok, a player sitting back with shotgun/sword and invis or whatever isn't very skillful either. And I'm not proud of those maps, but they happen.. admit it. But in my mind...especially on some of these more open, harder to stay alive on, maps to get that 9-3, 12-5 or whatever K/D is 2+, to me seems to require more skill. Ok, get 20 kills and die 10 times that's skill. Get a 24/23? I'm not happy that you died 23 times. Cause if I'm having a bad game and do die like 8 times with less than 8 kills, we're in trouble. You may have a +1, but at least I only died 8 times out of 50. I'd rather lose knowing I didn't even die a fifth of the total.
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[quote] Thats what Arena is, indiviuality scoring. It doesnt score the team's total score, it scores everyone seperate. If it wasnt seperate and it was based on teams, you would only be able to play in teams of 4. [/quote] this statement taken directly from the explanation of arena ratings by Bungie may help you see what you are missing in your logic; "One of our goals for the Arena is to reward working as a team. For some teams, this will take the form of team-shooting with DMRs. For others, calling out one-shots such that a teammate finishes off a wounded target. Regardless of the method, the Arena will reward a team who gangs up on their targets by giving their team collectively higher ratings than a team of lone wolves." If you play like this you are going to get more than 9 kills and 4 assists. Period. As I said before, Bungie is focusing how you contribute as a member of a team. If you want a higher rating, work on the things described above.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] four oh won [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x4EVER DELAYEDx Total fail. You can't lose a match if everybody in your team goes 9-3. The match will end when the time runs out. You only help your team by going positive. So if you go 9-3 you did better than the guy that went 24-23 because the other guy gave the opposing team 23 kills. [/quote] Finally, someone who is smart.[/quote] I personally would take someone who went 24-23 over someone who went 9-3 because since they both went positive I want the player that puts us closer to winning the game quickly. Also you have to consider that to get a score like 9-3 you weren't involved in nearly as much fighting as your teammate with 20 kills or whatever. This means that you were probably hanging back more and letting him find and engage people alone or at least let him be the one to take the most damage while you put shots on people from behind. Now don't get me wrong both of those things are useful but the guy in front definitely had a harder job.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ShiggitySchwaa I think you have a valid argument if you are solely concerned with your individual performance. However, that is not the goal of the new ranking system. It is judging how well you help your team to win games, which a lot of that has to do with weapon and map control. If you are camping on shotgun spawn on Pinnacle getting a 9-3 kill/death, yes you are more efficient of a player on your own. But the person with 24 kills more than likely is using a variety of weapons, moving around the map, pushing the opponents into more compromising positions. This is what allows a player like you to get your 9-3, because you aren't being blasted by all the other power weapons on the map.[/quote] Thats what Arena is, indiviuality scoring. It doesnt score the team's total score, it scores everyone seperate. If it wasnt seperate and it was based on teams, you would only be able to play in teams of 4.
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I think you have a valid argument if you are solely concerned with your individual performance. However, that is not the goal of the new ranking system. It is judging how well you help your team to win games, which a lot of that has to do with weapon and map control. If you are camping on shotgun spawn on Pinnacle getting a 9-3 kill/death, yes you are more efficient of a player on your own. But the person with 24 kills more than likely is using a variety of weapons, moving around the map, pushing the opponents into more compromising positions. This is what allows a player like you to get your 9-3, because you aren't being blasted by all the other power weapons on the map.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MELTOR13 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] four oh won This post makes no sense. You're using hypotheticals. The original post stated that in a game of Slayer, one person went 20-14 and the other went 9-3. In a game to 50, the 20-14 guy contributed to 21 kills while dying 14 times (counting assists). The 9-3 guy contributed to 13 kills while dying 3 times (again, counting the assists). So while the 20-14 guy contributed to almost half his team's kills, while contributing to only a little over a fourth of the enemies score. The 9-3 guy contributed to only 13 kills (roughly a fourth of the team's goal), and yes, he only died 3 times. 3 deaths is almost a tenth of the enemies score. So far, one guy is doing alot more to help his team along than the other one. Take a guess at who it is. *Hint* It's the guy who has contributed to almost HALF of his teams kills. If you have 2 guys on your team who go 20-14, the score of the game will be 40-28 (and this isn't even counting assists). That means the other teammates only have to provide a measly 10 kills, while they can die 21 times, combined, to win the game. 9-3 teammates, while they don't die much, dont help out much to the overall kill count either. So if you want to have a high KD but like to lose, then by all means, yes, go 9-3 every game. Unless you've got somebody else going off (like your 20-14 friend), you're probably going to lose that game. But you cant go 20-14 unless I go 70-14. [/quote] WTF are you talking about. I'm talking about an actual game, not some BS 1v1 game you made up. When you've completed high school and learned how to read, come talk to me again. [/quote] If I dont die, you cant get kills. Its as simple as that.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x4EVER DELAYEDx Total fail. You can't lose a match if everybody in your team goes 9-3. The match will end when the time runs out. You only help your team by going positive. So if you go 9-3 you did better than the guy that went 24-23 because the other guy gave the opposing team 23 kills. [/quote] Yea, maybe I'll sit a corner somewhere all game and really benefit my team by not giving up any kills. I'm sure they'd appreciate it.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] puRE x1 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] bongbong03 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] puRE x1 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] FREE THE FEET there is madals which make a big difference[/quote] Wait, you're telling me that medals are calculated in as well? I haven't paid much if any attention to Arena or how it "works", but if this is the case, I found my new home in competitive team slayer...[/quote] I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere. If it does factor in, I would think it is very very little. Actually, let me take this back. I can't believe it is factored in...unless a bunch of medals equals one total point out of 1500.[/quote] That's a little disappointing. Do you possibly have a link good sir?[/quote] Read the link this guy posted... [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] VirulentStrife [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=variants&cid=25865]Did you read this, OP?[/url] Did anyone read that?[/quote] I've gone through the math myself in excel. My only problem is that there must be something that they aren't telling us cause I don't get the exact same answers. For example, I took [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/GameStats.aspx?gameid=129040585&player=myDownfaII]your last game[/url]. Bungie scores: 1618 1591 1481 969 1469 1446 1367 1280 My calculated scores using their formula: 1624.356001 1596.368601 1487.009563 966.0790832 1474.556803 1451.981896 1372.371288 1284.253096 So my numbers all seem to be about 5 points off for some reason...
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] four oh won This post makes no sense. You're using hypotheticals. The original post stated that in a game of Slayer, one person went 20-14 and the other went 9-3. In a game to 50, the 20-14 guy contributed to 21 kills while dying 14 times (counting assists). The 9-3 guy contributed to 13 kills while dying 3 times (again, counting the assists). So while the 20-14 guy contributed to almost half his team's kills, while contributing to only a little over a fourth of the enemies score. The 9-3 guy contributed to only 13 kills (roughly a fourth of the team's goal), and yes, he only died 3 times. 3 deaths is almost a tenth of the enemies score. So far, one guy is doing alot more to help his team along than the other one. Take a guess at who it is. *Hint* It's the guy who has contributed to almost HALF of his teams kills. If you have 2 guys on your team who go 20-14, the score of the game will be 40-28 (and this isn't even counting assists). That means the other teammates only have to provide a measly 10 kills, while they can die 21 times, combined, to win the game. 9-3 teammates, while they don't die much, dont help out much to the overall kill count either. So if you want to have a high KD but like to lose, then by all means, yes, go 9-3 every game. Unless you've got somebody else going off (like your 20-14 friend), you're probably going to lose that game. But you cant go 20-14 unless I go 70-14. [/quote] WTF are you talking about. I'm talking about an actual game, not some BS 1v1 game you made up. When you've completed high school and learned how to read, come talk to me again.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HaVOk1228 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] four oh won And I know kids will come on here and say 'Id rather go 20-14.' Well, thats you. Tell you what, we can play a 1v1. You go 20-14 and Ill go 9-3. I will win EVERY TIME. So, with this, it means that the 9-3 contributes more to the team than the 20-14 player. [/quote] ...this might be the most ridiculous paragraph I have ever read. First off, not only is it impossible, but even if it was, you would actually lose 20-9. 9-3 does not help your team more than 20-14, they both help your team the same. +6 in the spread department. Spread is more important in terms of winning the game. Going 20-10 is a lot better than going 1-0. It helps your team a lot more.[/quote] No, you dont get it. You cant get 20 kills until I die 20 times. And, in order for me to die 20 times, I have to have way more kills than 20. If I die less than 20 times, you cant have 20 kills. (That sounds extremely stupid and obvious, but its exactly what Im saying. So it makes everyone that disagrees seems stupid) Also, I never said anything about KdS(spread). You fail to realize that 2-1, 4-2, and 100-50 are equal. How come no one else gets this? Am I really one of the select few who this makes sense to?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x4EVER DELAYEDx Total fail. You can't lose a match if everybody in your team goes 9-3. The match will end when the time runs out. You only help your team by going positive. So if you go 9-3 you did better than the guy that went 24-23 because the other guy gave the opposing team 23 kills. [/quote] Finally, someone who is smart.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] four oh won And I know kids will come on here and say 'Id rather go 20-14.' Well, thats you. Tell you what, we can play a 1v1. You go 20-14 and Ill go 9-3. I will win EVERY TIME. So, with this, it means that the 9-3 contributes more to the team than the 20-14 player. [/quote] ...this might be the most ridiculous paragraph I have ever read. First off, not only is it impossible, but even if it was, you would actually lose 20-9. 9-3 does not help your team more than 20-14, they both help your team the same. +6 in the spread department. Spread is more important in terms of winning the game. Going 20-10 is a lot better than going 1-0. It helps your team a lot more.
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Total fail. You can't lose a match if everybody in your team goes 9-3. The match will end when the time runs out. You only help your team by going positive. So if you go 9-3 you did better than the guy that went 24-23 because the other guy gave the opposing team 23 kills.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tyqae [quote]Motav 13 | Noble Member I'm pretty sure 1v1 games (the ranked ones) went to 15 didn't they? How could you win if some other guy got to 20... and you got to 9. Really? You're going to say he's wrong because his example was about guys getting 20 kills where 1v1 was to 15? What if they played a custom 1v1 to 25? or 50? How about that? Don't mock someone giving a hypothetical example to prove their point just because the scenario in your head is different. Obviously I agree with the OP. My task in games is to not die. Hence I enjoy getting those 8,9,10 or so kills and dieing a few times. Heck I've had games where I get like 15 kills and die 4 times..but who gets more points? That rusher who got 20 kills and died 12 times. Why? Because appearantly dieing three times more than me helped us lose that much faster.[/quote] Your math is so ridiculously fail that I can foresee any unborn child you may have being unable to count that high ever in their lives.[/quote] Since he didn't specify any sort of game I used the already created official 1v1 game type in where you go to 15. I figured that'd be a GOOD example since oh I don't know that it was ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED INTO THE GAME. Honestly who the hell goes past 15 in a 1v1 game? After 10 kills someone has the lead because of a power weapon and keeps it that way until the end. And since k/d ratio has NEVER determined a winner in a 1v1 match it's safe to say that whoever gets more kills is the victor regardless of how many deaths they have. [Edited on 10.01.2010 11:16 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] So, with this, it means that the 9-3 contributes more to the team than the 20-14 player. So dumb.[/quote] Not entirely true. You may have a better K/D ratio but the game only ends when you hit 50 kills and no matter how good you K/D spread is, if you can't get enough kills to get to fifty then you will loose. The guy with 20 kills managed to contribute almost half the kills needed while still providing 6 points, the same amount of points you contributed. He contributed more by getting the team closer to 50 points first and still not giving up the same amount of points to the other team through his deaths.
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[url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=variants&cid=25865]Did you read this, OP?[/url] Did anyone read that?
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[quote] So basically, in order to get a good score in Arena, you have to rush out and get kills, which chances more death.[/quote] but i wans 2 campz!!11 >:(
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] bongbong03 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] puRE x1 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] FREE THE FEET there is madals which make a big difference[/quote] Wait, you're telling me that medals are calculated in as well? I haven't paid much if any attention to Arena or how it "works", but if this is the case, I found my new home in competitive team slayer...[/quote] I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere. If it does factor in, I would think it is very very little. Actually, let me take this back. I can't believe it is factored in...unless a bunch of medals equals one total point out of 1500.[/quote] That's a little disappointing. Do you possibly have a link good sir?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] puRE x1 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] FREE THE FEET there is madals which make a big difference[/quote] Wait, you're telling me that medals are calculated in as well? I haven't paid much if any attention to Arena or how it "works", but if this is the case, I found my new home in competitive team slayer...[/quote] I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere. If it does factor in, I would think it is very very little. Actually, let me take this back. I can't believe it is factored in...unless a bunch of medals equals one total point out of 1500. [Edited on 10.01.2010 10:56 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] FREE THE FEET there is madals which make a big difference[/quote] Wait, you're telling me that medals are calculated in as well? I haven't paid much if any attention to Arena or how it "works", but if this is the case, I found my new home in competitive team slayer...
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[quote]Motav 13 | Noble Member I'm pretty sure 1v1 games (the ranked ones) went to 15 didn't they? How could you win if some other guy got to 20... and you got to 9. Your math is so ridiculously fail that I can foresee any unborn child you may have being unable to count that high ever in their lives.[/quote] Really? You're going to say he's wrong because his example was about guys getting 20 kills where 1v1 was to 15? What if they played a custom 1v1 to 25? or 50? How about that? Don't mock someone giving a hypothetical example to prove their point just because the scenario in your head is different. Obviously I agree with the OP. My task in games is to not die. Hence I enjoy getting those 8,9,10 or so kills and dieing a few times. Heck I've had games where I get like 15 kills and die 4 times..but who gets more points? That rusher who got 20 kills and died 12 times. Why? Because appearantly dieing three times more than me helped us lose that much faster. [Edited on 10.01.2010 10:40 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] four oh won I get it. Bungie wants to have Social and Ranked again, thats cool. But really? Arena is ranked with numbers that dont make sense? Sweet. So, you get a higher score by getting more kills for the team and helping out. Okay. The more kills you get, the higher the score. The more assists you get, the higher the score. Okay. Then tell me how this makes sense... 1585- 20 kills, 1 assist, 14 deaths 1487- 9 kills, 4 assists, 3 deaths Now, I could be wrong, but I know Im not. The 9-4-3 needs to have a better score here, because a looooooooot of people care about KdR. And now, Bungie is tossing that 'need' out the window. Because the 20-14 is a KdR of 1.43 and the KdR of the 9-3 is 3. So tell me why the player with more than double the KdR gets less points (not to mention 4x the assists)? And I know kids will come on here and say 'Id rather go 20-14.' Well, thats you. Tell you what, we can play a 1v1. You go 20-14 and Ill go 9-3. I will win EVERY TIME. So, with this, it means that the 9-3 contributes more to the team than the 20-14 player. So basically, in order to get a good score in Arena, you have to rush out and get kills, which chances more death. But Bungie doesnt care about that, as long as you get as many kills as you can in the game. So dumb.[/quote] theres more to ratng than just spead or kd, there is madals which make a big difference
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I'm pretty sure 1v1 games (the ranked ones) went to 15 didn't they? How could you win if some other guy got to 20... and you got to 9. Your math is so ridiculously fail that I can foresee any unborn child you may have being unable to count that high ever in their lives.
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I think people that kill more should get more points. E.g. if one players goes 20-14 and the other goes 10-7, the guy with 20 kills should get more points. What I don't agree with is that deaths are worth so little. I think even 1/2 may be too little, but we will see. I think somewhere between 3/4 and 1/2 would be more ideal.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ChickenRebornx I absolutely hate the scoring system in reach. A -blam!- player can go like 5-15 17 out of 20 games but go 15-5 for 3 games and have a great rating. Its ridiculous. Halo 3's rating system wasn't that great but compared to this i love it. In halo 3 i would see a general in a game and be like -blam!- this kid is probs really good and most of the time he was. I see a kid now with a gold or onyx thing next to his name ..... who the -blam!- cares. [/quote] You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
