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Edited by Luckdog26:
3/1/2016 3:38:18 AM
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Why Shotguns will never be balanced.
While playing Iron Banner this past week I was finally able to formulate what i believe to be the problem with Shotguns and unfortunately it's a problem I don't ever see Bungie being able to fix.
As a PVP game, Destiny has a much higher time to kill than most other PVP games. Including CoD and Battlefield.
The problem with Destiny is that you have both high and low time to kills in the one mode. On one end of the spectrum you have primary weapons, where the time to kill is quite high, then on the other end you have special and heavy weapons, where the TTK is quite low.
This is what makes most kills feel cheap in Destiny. I could stand there shooting someone with my primary weapon, and because the TTK is high on primaries, they can walk straight up to me and one hit kill me with a shotgun with great ease.
In cod for example, the time to kill on ALL weapons is quite low, so using snipers doesn't really give you much of an advantage over the rest of the weapon classes. Same with shotguns. It's the average ttk that balances shotguns.
In Destiny, the only way to fix this would be to buff all primaries to lower the TTK on them, which I'm not sure would work in Destiny. Because I'm not suggesting we make this into COD.
Thoughts?
Edit: sometimes I forget that this community is hopeless. Here I was, thinking hey I'll share my educated opinion on the forum, see what people think, but nope, bunch of insulting comments with a few good comments from friendly people (cheers) sprinkled around the thread.
English
#Destiny
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Edited by The_Salty_Clam: 3/1/2016 9:03:42 PMI honestly think destiny is a fairly slow time to kill game. If I were to rank the time to kill in games starting with the fastest it would go: Rainbow 6 siege>Call of duty>battlefield 4>destiny Oops I read that wrong. I thought you were saying destiny has a fast time to kill.
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Shotguns are balanced well because the god of shotguns Lord of wolves keeps them all in check. I can't wait when its brought into year 2 so I can take into Iron banner and trials with my no backup plans.
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4 Repliesi am kind of curious what would happen if there was a new game mode in crucible were primaries are the only thing that has and will have ammo throughout the entire match. but i am sure that i am not the only person who thought or spoke about this.
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Bungie: We have heard your plea, in response we will be nerfing fusion rifles
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Edited by G: 3/1/2016 3:38:17 PMShotguns are easily the riskiest weapon to use in this game. It requires a different level of skill to use than other guns. Shotguns are fine where they're at. They do not need a nerf or a buff. Bungie has done enough changes to shotguns. There's no reason for them to become useless for the type of weapon they should be. In my opinion, high rate of fire/low impact shotguns should have more range than low rate of fire/high impact shotguns.
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How exactly is your opinion educated?
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This post has to do with shotguns in what way?
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Reduce fire rate on all specials. Disable radar after hard scoping with sniper. A shotgun should kill you up close, don't complain about it, pay attention to your surroundings, chances are if someone is rushing you, they have a shotty.
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Shotguns are fine, mobility was nerfed so If someone is rushing you you have time to gun them down, if you get rushed from a corner thats your fault.
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2 RepliesI think what they probably should have done was drop the highest-impact archetype all together, like what they did with the extremely low impact snipers from House of Wolves. Remember those two snipers that were 3 shots to the body?
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2 RepliesI'm not sure why you singled out shotguns in the [u]title[/u]. Snipers one shot too, and they can do it from more ranges.
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Son save your breath, I've given up on trying to improve the game and/or community long ago, there's nothing the 2 of us can do to help its toxic and its dying from its own cancer. Save yourself while you can lmao... Regarding the content of your post, I would have to say the only alternative/solution other than what you mentioned, is reverting to a more Y1 style of shotgun with higher RoF and lower impact. It would be great if as a community we could come together and collaborate on this issue sine THATS THE F*CKING POINT OF FORUMS (Im trying to regain a life so instead of pointing out each and everything wrong I will skip this) but there's not enough of us to hold them off, you start making a little too much sense and this cancer called a community will take your faith in humanity away in no time. I feel you man, (I don't want to sound pompous or arrogant, I wouldn't say this if it weren't for the anonymity of the interweb) if only there were more ppl like us playing Destiny :/
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Shotguns are pretty balanced
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Lately I've been destroying shotgun users with my Nirwen's mercy. It's on my hunter.
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Shotguns will always be strong as long as mobility is as strong as it is right now. Ok you nerf shotguns so they won't blow you away at 5 feet now it will blow you away at 4 feet... The way the game is designed and how the maps are contribute to shotgun effectiveness.
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7 RepliesAll true. Just remove range finder as a perk for shotguns. Seriously reckon that this would knock Con D of its high horse, and add sway and longer scoping times for snipers. Suddenly they becomes situational not primary's
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Edited by cleanerbot: 3/1/2016 12:35:40 AMTrue. but snipers are currently worse then shotguns. I run a shotgun but rarely use it. But thats the core problem. Primary ttks vs snipers and shotty 1hitko. Though i rarely have a problem vs shotguns. I primarily use autorifles backpedal and jump. usually always saves me. Snipers on the other hand gives 0 chance to react since you wont spot them on radar and with The usual delay in crucible ure deadbefore u even see The glare. Special ammo in my opinion should be as exotic as heavy ammo. But i wouldnt mind seeing a crucible rotation of primary only and a trials with primary only.
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2 RepliesEdited by Ark: 2/29/2016 10:57:58 PMCompletely agree. Primaries should have lower TTK. I don't know why you focus on shotguns since with snipers since it's the same issue only different ranges. EDIT: keep nerfing shotguns and we will all be crying about melee more and more. Fusions should be buffed.
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1 ReplyEdited by Artificiarius: 3/1/2016 1:35:36 AMMy thoughts on the matter is that at the core of the issue you are absolutely correct. Mixing these two creates a conflicting atmosphere that has polarized a community susceptible to toxicity. On the other hand I see Bungies atempt to have a fresh take on the genre and i feel it pulls from too many sources to compare it to fast ttk games. As more changes keep happening, stemming from the constant hurricane of nerf topics. Destiny will become more and more homogenized with other games and loose that unique value. I realize this uniqueness right now is imbalance and we're right back at the core of the issue. I want Destiny to remain unique. But unique in the since of balance. Where can we find a middle ground? In shooters of all kinds there are power weapons. Destiny seems to be one of the few games where everyone starts with their power weapon. Which is cool, however it leads to the problem above. I am no expert, but I do play pvp often. I would opt to even further limit special ammo on a timer that spawns ammo only three times per 6v6 match at 5 minute intervals. During trials, starting at round 3 everyone spawns with special ammo. But that's what you get. No crates in trials. But this is just a thought as I have no idea what would truly fix the issue. I just don't want to see destiny compared to other games in an attempt to find a solution. Basing solutions off of other games fails to capture the point of destiny being a unique entity in the genre.
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1 ReplyEasy way to balance all weapons in Destiny. Remove the perks in PvP. 99% of all the problems in the game regarding the weapons can be fixed if none of the perks on the weapons worked in PvP. No more long ranged shottys No more sniper massive aim assist No more Thorn poison No more max stability Doctrine No more Grenades and Horseshoes No more insta melt last word. No more mega fast MIDA No more Ice Breaker/Invective ammo gen No more anything if you just disable the perks. There, problem solved, crucible is now more balanced. :)
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5 RepliesWhat was great about halo (2 and 3 specifically) is that in any MLG gametypes/maps, there were only 2 snipers on the entire map. The game was about control of these two special weapons. The low time to kill was what made it such a competitive game, and control of the special weapons was imperative. The same went for other gametypes as well, with shotguns only available to one person from each team (in most cases). They were highly effective but couldn't be relied on 100% of the time like they can be in destiny. I think the need to special was a great step forward for competitive play in destiny. One way that the game could really progress, in my opinion at least, is of the special boxes were designed so that only one player could pick up the special ammo. It would make player roles in the game much more important and at the same time make primary gun skill and teamwork much more a deciding factor in the game.
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A shotgunner kills you shame on him for using a crutch weapon, a shotgunner kills you again shame on you for letting him get close
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Edited by ThisMahSwamp: 2/29/2016 10:59:45 PMTTK is a bit tricky to approach. Firstly, shotguns don't really have a TTK once within an effective range. It is literally pull trigger, get kill.....that's of course if you don't miss the shot. The same can be said of snipers, at least partially. If you manage a crit, there is effectively no TTK. Body shots with snipers is really the only time when TTK is truly measurable for this weapon. So, the challenge for the two archetypes mentioned above is getting into the proper position to get that one shot off for the kill....That's where the "challenge" is so to speak. Fusions are a different animal. Their charge rate effectively determines the weapon's TTK. Albeit, certain fusions with perform better at longer ranges, etc., etc. , etc. but the point BASICALLY speaking is that TTK for fusions is by in large a big factor on the user's success. Yeah, you can pre charge and all that, but you can't get that "SURPRISE" shot off before other secondaries can. Why do you think it is most people prefer low charge rate fusions over high charge/high impact ones? IMO sidearms are in a good spot TTK wise, so I won't go into much detail about them. Now, on to primaries. Each archetype has it's pros and cons and it would seem Bungie has at least tried to balance TTK values. So let's look at the different archetypes: 1) Handcanons: On average the TTK for these is around 0.75 (I am estimating to a point, but if you were to look up tables on this it would reflect similar numbers). Notably lower than the rest of the primaries we have at our disposal. Why? They reward accuracy. If you can consistently double/triple crit with a handcanon, you will kill faster than a DoP. The problem is it punishes the hell out of you for missing crits. Note, I am speaking of handcanons in GENERAL and purposefully leaving TLW out of the equation for the time being....since its TTK is wildly low. HOLD: will update more later.
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5 RepliesI would cut the shottys range But it won't happen In gears of war it's even worse
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9 Replies..which is why id like to see an idea i had come to fruition. In PVP ONLY - secondaries and heavies should be affected when it comes to sprint and jump. For shotguns and snipers I say take away the ability to sprint. For rockets and machine guns the ability to jump be removed. What do other players think about this?? I feel it would put an end to people shotgun/hopping across the map, snipers will be used more how they SHOULD be..camped and not pulling off headshots at 5 feet away.
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I've actually come to the exact same conclusion, that primaries kill too slowly for one hit kill weapons like snipers and shotguns to ever be balanced. I don't think destiny started out this way though, but since all bungie ever does to balance weapons is to nerf them, they have effectively made the overall ttk of all primary weapons much slower. I think this is also why currently there are a select few weapons that stand out like dop, tlw and mida. Doc and last word are very good counters to shotguns and are therefore very popular to be paired with a sniper, and mida is a great counter to snipers because of high caliber rounds so people will often pair it with a shotgun. That's why I always cringe when I see posts like "Nerf mida" or "take away AA from snipers" because snipers and shotguns are both in a place where they take a good amount of skill to compete against their specific counters. And what bungie needs to do is make it so that all close range primaries can counter shotguns well and all long range primaries can effectively counter snipers.
