Today I had, like everyone else, a really bad experience in PvP. For most, especially the casuals and (below) average players, this happens on a daily basis. (Above) Average players like me usually are still able to do fine in most crucible lobbies, but for the less good players it is even less good of an experience. In fact, it is a discouraging nightmare for most. So, let us talk on how we can fix that.
First and foremost, I want you to look at the stats of [url=https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/profile/xbl/4611686018449465971/overview]Ex[/url] and [url=https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/profile/bungie/4611686018451624764/overview]MaraSovzThigh[/url].
Both are players I faced today in Crucible. Both are at least 0.5 K/D (50%+) better than me in PvP in general. Both are players I can hardly deal with sometimes. And both are players that are basically PvP Gods to the players below my own player skill and experience.
A player like me can not learn much from those 2 when playing against them. A new/bad player even less when playing against one of the 2.
The only thing I will learn from those 2 players is that I am far from being the best and that I will most likely lose the match. A new/bad player will only learn in a very discouraging way that they are very, very bad at the game.
People usually play PvP primarily for competition AND fun. But when the competition outweighs the fun by a lot, those players usually quit the game or will complain.
I don't think anyone in this game enjoys dying (unless they are a total masochist). Death not only prevents you from playing the game til you get respawned/revived. It is also an undeniable indicator you did something wrong when playing the game. And from my experience, most people don't like to be called out on their mistakes, especially if they get punished for that in a game. Dying is simply not good in Destiny 1 and 2.
Now, I am not going to say something super controversial like "remove deaths" or something stupid in that way. I will actually say something smart that you can debate about in the comments.
So let me quote a part from a short [url=https://www.escapistmagazine.com/how-to-make-constant-failure-fun-in-video-games/]Article about Dying and Learning in Games[/url]:
[quote]Challenge isn’t about forcing raw difficulty upon players, smashing them to pieces, but instead pushing a game’s core systems to their upper limit. Players can accept and even embrace failure along the way when the causes for that failure are made reasonably clear and feel manageable. When more developers come to appreciate this notion, one can’t help but be excited at what new mountains on the horizon are waiting to be climbed.[/quote]
I think important here is the sentence "Players can accept and even embrace failure along the way when the causes for that failure are made reasonably clear and feel manageable".
When a player like me gets killed, for instance, by one of the players I mentioned above, I can learn something from them. Not much, but something. Why? Because the reason why I failed is to me clear and the way to improve is manageable.
When I was fighting Ex on Wormheaven, I switched to long range weapons and stayed out of his range as best as I could on that map. I waited for my team, playing as a pack together, instead of running around alone like I usually do. When I was playing against "MaraSovzThigh" on Bannerfall, I stayed inside the buildings instead of running around in the open. I also learned that "Mara" has more mastery over movement than I have. So another reason to stay inside the buildings, to prevent giving space for movement to "Mara".
But when a new/bad player dies to one of them, they will learn literally nothing. A new player lacks the basics. A bad player lacks (at that moment) the understanding of efficient play. They will learn nothing in the vast majority of cases. They will learn nothing but frustration and anger towards PvP. And why is that? Because [b]the challenge doesn't feel manageable for them to overcome[/b].
And that's why we need a second default 6v6-playlist with SBMM in addition to already CBMM existing Control. New and bad players alike need a (safe-)space where they can learn and overcome the challenge to see actual improvement of their own PvP player skill. They need to get better first against opponents of their own skill range, before being set off into the harsh world of much better opponents in PvP.
Now one or another may ask themself, why I say "we need a 2nd 6v6 playlist with SBMM" instead of "make PvP SBMM in general". And the reason for that is simple.
If Bungie would make Crucible in general SBMM, a big part of the community would complain about lagging opponents or that their lobbies feel "sweaty". But giving the new/bad players and the SBMM lovers an own playlist will at worst only reduce the playerbase of existing control a bit. And the best thing about it, [b]Players would have the choice![/b]
Let us imagine for a moment we would have such a SBMM playlist in addition to CBMM control.
You don't like SBMM? - No problem, just don't play that playlist!
You don't want to play a playlist full of lag for your area? - No problem, just don't play that playlist!
You feel like you are not improving anymore? - No Problem, just go play CBMM control!
Giving both good and new/bad players the choice what kind of Matchmaking-Playlist they want to play, allows for a better experience, less frustration and a better learning curve of players that need more time than harder opponents.
For reference, back in D1 I became better [b]because of SBMM[/b]. It allowed me to master the basics and my movement first, before facing better opponents. When I was ready for them. And today in D2 I am probably better than in D1. But even I would sometimes also prefer to have less frustration in my Crucible experience. That's why I, an (above) average PvP player argue for SBMM to be a seperate playlist. I argue for choices. Giving players choices for Matchmaking was always a good idea. Allowing new and bad players to have a safe environment to master the basics and their class movement first, will serve them much better than a "dying all the time"-experience as right now is the case.
And even if that playlist wouldn't work out from Bungies perspective, they could still remove it again. It is by far the best compromise between re-introducing SBMM and keeping CBMM.
Thanks for reading :)
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1 ReplyA little long to read while I have a fever but is the separate SBMM node akin to what we had at Shadowkeep? 2 6v6 control nodes, 1 SBMM, 1 CBMM? I might recall wrong but back then both ended up like they were SBMM since only a certain portion of the community went into the CBMM so there were complaints about the connection quality. Though I didn’t have much issue with bad connections in the SBMM playlist. Where I was mostly for competition, went into CBMM when I wanted to sweat and push myself to see how much I had improved.
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1 ReplyEdited by Icy Hot Todoroki: 2/21/2022 6:38:42 PMFirst and foremost - K/D is not a precise measurement of skill. For example, I am an average player at best, and if I end up by myself, outside of a 1v1 where I have a jump on the guy, I will get destroyed. However, if I am running tandem, my k/d and assists will jump up dramatically. While there are a lot of lone ranger types who can take out an entire 6 stack by themselves, there are probably just as many -blam!- on team shooting. Second, you call for SBMM, but realize, that Bungie has implemented this before, and according to several survey's conducted in petition to it, 47% wanted to go to CBMM, while only 10% wanted to keep SBMM. That's saying a lot. Now, take into consideration that the population of a lot of other popular PvP games have also been wanting to go away from SBMM should show you how SBMM, while in theory is an excellent idea, is horrible in practice. Is CBMM perfect? Absolutely not. It's probably just as bad as SBMM, except without the long queue times. Since, other than crying about it, there's really nothing more we can do except take the lemons life gives us, and make Lemon Drop -blam!-.
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1 ReplySbmm is already in the game. Go play the modes that have it. Control is not ranked and doesn’t need ranked based matchmaking. /thread
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6 RepliesEdited by livin like larry: 2/21/2022 3:33:24 PMDisagree, as that second playlist would just split the playerbase. Sbmm is not necessary in a casual 6v6 environment. Especially not in one that employs an archaic p2p networking system. If we had dedicated servers, I’d be more on board with some loose sbmm. Connections with crossplay are already not great, imagine them being even worse.
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There are only 2 things that will meaningfully improve Crucible as a STARTING POINT to making it worthwhile: 1. An actual working anti-cheat (aka not Battleye, as it clearly does not work to any real degree) 2. Removing PVP entirely
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Very very good post. Especially from an above average player. You're saying here ease what I've been trying to tell the pro-cbmm get gud crowd for years. People learn at different paces then others do. Most mid to lower players learn at a longer pace and not from getting stomped. The idea that "you only learn from players better than you is true. But...different people learn from different skill gaps. Innate high level/high skill players have the ability to learn from someone way above their current skill. However most mids and casuals do not. They need time and lots of matches to figure out the path to success. If they can't also have fun during this time they'll just leave. There is a clear disconnect with many high level players that post here about what the mid and lower need to succeed and have fun. Even fun is defined differently for them. So it's very hard for them to understand what sbmm really does for a player like that. The high level players can deny it all they want, the pvp pop numbers along with the sheer amount of posts show that a large portion of the community is unhappy with matchmaking. It's can't be ignored much longer. I have a suspicion that Bungie does have changes coming but they are not announcing or implementing then until after Witch Queen. Too much controversy. Great post
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3 RepliesEdited by JaggedMetalKrustyO: 2/21/2022 3:13:43 PMWell thought out and well written. I stopped playing and will not return unless SBMM comes back to 6v6 playlists. Sorry, but 3-man survival and comp are competitive modes and not very fun for below-average players like me. I'm just one person, but I am sure I'm not the only one. The current state of crucible is not just bad for gameplay - it's bad business. I was a paying customer - now I am not purely because of the state of crucible. What's really scary to me is that people on this thread actually thinking its bad to have the [u]option [/u]of choosing SBMM or CBMM for 6man gameplay. Since when is having a [u]choice [/u]a bad thing?
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1 ReplyEdited by iZnth: 2/21/2022 1:51:26 PMGood post. I will reiterate what I have previously said though; many of the current problems can be solved by simply removing stat tracking (or at least k/d tracking) from casual playlists. A lot of people refuse to play PvP because it not only destroys their self-image (shooting Thralls in strikes makes people believe they are much better than they are), but also because everyone else (including their friends) can see how poorly they did. You also lose the k/d farmers in one fell swoop.
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8 RepliesNo no and no. Most of the time the people who are the most frustrated with matchmaking are the average players who get stuck with people who are terrible at the game. Other times it’s the above average players who are forced to carry teams. SBMM is not the problem or the solution. We need CBMM with a lobby balancing system so that teams are more even. Too often there are mercy matches or matches where more than half a team goes negative.
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With new blood coming tomorrow, you can bet your -blam!- sbmm will be in place
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Another pro-sbmm post at 0 upvotes, it's almost as if you are a tiny minority huh? No we don't need more sbmm modes, sbmm is for COMPETITIVE playlists and it's IN the competitive playlists already. Anyone wanting sbmm can freely enjoy said playlists, we absolutely don't need more. Also speaking as a below average player pvp is completely fine, I can't believe some players have gotten so pathetic they beg for matchmaking to pander to thier incompetence. It's sad. I guess if I'm bad at the raids they should become easier for me? If I wipe 10 times the boss should spawn in at half health too right? After all the more I suck the easier the game should become for me? No, you don't get a safe space or participation trophies in non-competitve game modes. Stick to comp ones if you want close/sweaty/competitive matches.
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12 RepliesEveryone started somewhere. Noobs will have to learn from experience and put in the time in crucible to be a crucible god. I was once a noob almost 7 years ago in d1 it took me 2 years to fully be a crucible legend. As for matchmaking just get rid of it and let it be random and make me fight every guardian that’s on destiny regardless of light level and hours. I’m tired of facing 6 stacks of lagging South American players and European players and Mexicans.
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12 RepliesEdited by Artisan: 2/21/2022 12:54:09 PMYou'll get, as is always the case, knee-jerk reactions by those who are enjoying or just getting by from farming beginners. That's because they're forgetting you emphasised this as an OPTION. Currently there are no SBMM 6v6s. And just ONE 3v3 SBMM Gametype - which is a pitiful offering - in Elim/Comp Elim. If you don't like Elim, you're sheer out of luck. That's not sufficient, nor casual friendly/beginner friendly/non meta friendly/less able friendly. As far as CBMM not working for those - it goes without saying that pitting Flawless , Unbrokens, with 10,000 kills on their Adept Palindromes and accompanying Shotgun against them isn't enjoyable, isn't motivating, isn't fair, isn't within what is challenging, isn't how you learn. There's an abundance of different academic, scientific studies to support each of those but it just commonsense too. Will an extra option be available? Not imminently it would seem. They have said via CM that they're continuing to look at matchmaking but in appearance it seems it's priority #7678. You need only look at how long it's taking to get any new map to assess these seem in a pit of no interest to improve.
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2 RepliesThey should go back to 4v4 or rebuild all the maps for 6’s.
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Am not a god in pvp as a main Titan with a side arm and mida but I can give as good as I get.. I struggle to exotics that give added slide and speed and finished with a shotgun. Also fusions shouldn’t ohk from 25 meters at all. Am also peeved at over shields in pvp and the way a warlock can use his whole super while 100 meters in the air. What’s that about 💩🤣 Anyway folks you just need to learn from your mistakes and learn what direction enemies are going to attack you from with map awareness.. Any how let’s go have fun in pvp and kill -blam!- 💪
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3 RepliesNow, I’m not gonna read it, but it looks like it took some thought so I’m gonna do my part and upvote this
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4 Repliesyou definitely need a TL:DR since this is way too long to make an argument that SBMM was much better considering if you look back at all the complaints about how bad SBMM was, and how almost half the community voted to get rid of it - then add in that even CoD and Battlefield players want to get rid of SBMM in favor of CBMM - defeats the entire base of whatever argument you can ever make.
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1 ReplyThey tried that. It was when the game had Quick Play (SBMM) and Classic Mix (CBMM). Classic Mix was dead as -blam!- because, lol, none of the casuals wanted to play in the CBMM-get-curbstomped-24/7 playlist. I do agree tho, there should be an SBMM and a CBMM option of 6v6 Control/Clash game-modes for those who prefer either. Comp has SBMM, but the control 6v6 and Survival game-modes are vastly different so it's not really helping to just say "go play comp for your SBMM fix".
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At this point i would take Iron Banner sbmm (as it's supposedly end game pvp) then at least once a month we can all have a blast on a more even footing but leave control as cbmm 🤷🏼♂️
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1 ReplyWhen you get mercy matches and you get a message saying that they are finding a "better match" how could that not be SBMM. Also the fact that except for full lobbies, teams are selected on a scale from good to poor. And I am still being "matched" with Chinese, Japanese, Americans etc. I'm in Australia CBMM is a myth.
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just give sbmm of rumble so pepes can start get better , leavel casual mode alone , they are already bad with the hidden sbmm they have
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2 RepliesThere's definitely nothing wrong with having separate 6v6 playlists that feature separate types of matchmaking.
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I'd say that they definitely need to address the servers as they are currently first before they add a SBMM Control playlist or something to the Crucible. But with Crossplay, I think we definitely have the numbers for another playlist like that. I'd be for it if it helps the new players and such.