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6/18/2020 11:59:51 AM
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Why SBMM is needed to maintain player population and support weaker players
All the YouTube content creators are going on about how much better things are with CBMM. Most of them are not idiots CBMM is better for them because they are highly skilled and they think getting 50+ bombs against good players is good content.
For the top 5-20% of players on any playlist CBMM is clearly better (for a while) there is no doubt about that. However look at last seasons Trials. Here the premium PVP content was CBMM and wins. What happened. The population plummeted, and the number of cheaters rocketed. CBMM was better for a while and then it just wasn't!
Everyone who stopped playing trails is at least an above average PVP, and lots of them are high level approaching elite. Yet they stopped playing because they just had no chance of winning. As the population fell things got worse, a downward spiral
Population is the most important thing for quality pvp game play by far. CBMM increases the population that top players can play against (for a while) so they love it. But what about the people who aren't so skilled? What happens to them is they get crushed and stop playing.
Now Bungie have removed SBMM from every playlist apart from Survival (comp). So in every 6v6 PVP match there will be 2-4 players who are way better than the other 8-10 players. This means that 8-10 players will have a poor experience in every single match.
These people will play less and eventually stop playing, reducing the player population and creating another downward spiral.
The solution is simple measure peoples skill. Use SBMM for the less skilled to encourage the player population to grow. Use CBMM for the highly skilled where it actually has a +ve effect on the overall player experience.
Bungie and the Destiny community need to ensure that PVP activities are fun for all players no matter what their skill level - and yes this includes Trials. CBMM for all skill levels has to go. It is corrosive and destroys player populations.
Finally the community is more than just the elite players and content creators. Bungie please listen to a wider audience.
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16 RepliesEdited by RichardPictures3: 6/19/2020 3:48:19 PM[quote]All the YouTube content creators are going on about how much better things are with CBMM. Most of them are not idiots CBMM is better for them because they are highly skilled and they think getting 50+ bombs against good players is good content. For the top 5-20% of players on any playlist CBMM is clearly better (for a while) there is no doubt about that. However look at last seasons Trials. Here the premium PVP content was CBMM and wins. What happened. The population plummeted, and the number of cheaters rocketed. CBMM was better for a while and then it just wasn't! Everyone who stopped playing trails is at least an above average PVP, and lots of them are high level approaching elite. Yet they stopped playing because they just had no chance of winning. As the population fell things got worse, a downward spiral Population is the most important thing for quality pvp game play by far. CBMM increases the population that top players can play against (for a while) so they love it. But what about the people who aren't so skilled? What happens to them is they get crushed and stop playing. Now Bungie have removed SBMM from every playlist apart from Survival (comp). So in every 6v6 PVP match there will be 2-4 players who are way better than the other 8-10 players. This means that 8-10 players will have a poor experience in every single match. These people will play less and eventually stop playing, reducing the player population and creating another downward spiral. The solution is simple measure peoples skill. Use SBMM for the less skilled to encourage the player population to grow. Use CBMM for the highly skilled where it actually has a +ve effect on the overall player experience. Bungie and the Destiny community need to ensure that PVP activities are fun for all players no matter what their skill level - and yes this includes Trials. CBMM for all skill levels has to go. It is corrosive and destroys player populations. Finally the community is more than just the elite players and content creators. Bungie please listen to a wider audience.[/quote] Those bottom % of players are completely fabricating their claims. In most cases they’re actually doing better over all. But they lose once or twice, and see one emblem, they lose their shit. Sorry but I’ve checked a metric shit ton of players that complain. And found they’re flat out lying most of the time.
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3 RepliesPeople are quickly picking up upon elimination and survival due to both still having sbmm
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I think there should be a more even split between what does and does not have it. Quickplay should be connection based for that "quick match." Specific modes like control, clash and supremacy when they are an option should be sbmm. Quickplay and mayhem really should be the only actual ones exempt from sbmm because they are designed to be chaotic fun, not a sweat match. I'm an above average player and the matches feel no different to me, but that's because I was already facing those higher up players due to sbmm. To me it doesn't really matter, but to my friends who are not as good as me it can be a pain in the ass for them.
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2 RepliesExcellent summary. Quickplay population died when it was [u]bugged[/u] and sbmm removed. Bungie had to being sbmm back in the core Playlists and the population was it's highest last season. Now they've swung the pendulum too far again and it's dimmed to repeat. This time in more Playlists. And for what? To appease a small percentage of content creators?
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EVERY time sbmm is implemented, player population drops. So no, cbmm is here to stay. Stop complaining. Either get better at the game or quit.
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He he, I run with bow and shoot
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It’s not needed at all..., games are much better, far less laggy and dare I say fun.... win or lose you still get the same rewards....
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Last time sbmm was in the game was back when their was under 50k players a day before warmind.
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2 RepliesHere’s another reply. The bottom % don’t really support crucible anyway. They play for their pinnacle mostly and that’s it... They don’t have genuine interest in their crucible performance.
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3 RepliesEdited by pacificdune: 6/20/2020 3:35:31 AMI don’t want to be kept in an artificial bubble with other low skill players. Why should bungie tune their pvp for people who don’t like pvp?
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An argument could actually be made that content creator influences drive people to and from the game as well. Regardless of skill or anything. Either way, preferences are the real solution. People having what they want.
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I'm pretty sure they changed to CBMM because the player pool is the smallest during the last season of the year. They will probably go back to SBMM in September when there will probably be a boost to the player pool size.
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The only way to get SBMM back is to have your voice heard. Make post on the forum asking for sbmm back. Like all the post that want it back. And stop playing crucible. And tell your friends and have them spread the word. Don't play crucible, Show Bungie how we feel. Boycott crucible tell your friends If you want your pinnacle rewards go play elimination or comp, let the sweats play each other this season. Ps. If I don't respond to you, that means your not worth my time or effort.
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Edited by DHawk12: 6/19/2020 8:52:30 PMOverall i think sbmm is the best form of matchmaking but ONLY WITH: -Dedicated Servers -Tiered Progression based on skill (5-6 brackets) —Increased XP/Valor/Tokens —Increased bounty/quest/triumph progression —Increased quality/quantity of loot But since none of the above is implemented, cbmm is the best option.
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Yes yes and yes.
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4 RepliesYou are missing one big fact here : the "top 5-20%" players are the one who play crucible on a daily basis and spend a lot of time there, where most of casuals players only makes weelky quests. So yeah, putting CBMM back is a good move on Bungie, because it was asked by the ones that make crucible live.
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Again... I am a trash can player, bottom quarter, and I like CBMM far more. No more lag, much less stompy stacks of unbrokens - I only see as much of them as their percentage in global population, unlike SBMM where they were a tool used by Bungie to pad win/lose ratio for everyone. SBMM is probably a good thing if it implemented properly. SBMM we had, which only tried hard to keep your win/lose below 50%, was a pile of crap and nothing else. Keep CBMM, it benefits everyone, even trash like me.
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6 RepliesYou obviously aren’t well versed in the difference between the two. CBMM has nothing to do with cheaters or trials population for that matter. Trials has never been CBMM. It’s based off number of wins on trails card and and your ELO. Competitive has always been SBMM and still is SBMM. Now Quickplay ahh here we go. Quickplay is just that it’s Quickplay. A quick match for fun using different loadouts. I should be able to find a match quickly and have fun while playing. SBMM ruins this in Quickplay. As a top player when I get home from work last thing I want to do is sweat every dang match while playing Quickplay. As references before if I want to do that I can enter competitive. Just like “YOU” can enter competitive and play ppl at your same skill level. This is real simple. PvP is not for everyone I’m not the best in the world and you clearly aren’t and are frustrated. PvP stand for “Player Vs Player” that makes it a competition just like a sport. When you get you ass kicked in sports what do you do you practice and get better. Before you throw some excuse like oh it’s hard to get better when I get spawned trapped. Bud if you’re getting spawned trapped the whole match in CBMM it’s your own damn fault when this rarely happens 1 out of 20 matches if that. Also on a side note as stated with this being like sports you shouldn’t be catered down to bc your skill level is lower this isn’t a participation event. PS: Gambit was made for PVE/PVP players that reside at that lower skill level so go enjoy that if you don’t find Crucibile fun.
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Trials population dieing has 0 to do with CBMM. Problems in trials are as follows Loot. with a limited loot pool and no adept weapons there is no reason to keep farming once you have a good roll on the weapons/ armor you want low card farming. its easier for high skilled players to farm low card for tokens then progressing in the card. reward structure. because of low card farming it is nearly impossible for even average skilled teams to get to 3 wins. leads to losing out on tokens youve earned and makes the playlist feel like a waste of time. all things above combine to make: Skill Creep. as lesser players leave because they are not getting any rewards the average players become the lowest rung. now average players cant get to three wins so they leave. then the above average players and so on. eventually it is only the best of the best and as much as they say they want a sweaty playlist, they still want to stomp lesser skilled players. Also CHEATING!
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2 RepliesThe only way to get SBMM back is to have your voice heard. Make post on the forum asking for sbmm back. Like all the post that want it back. And stop playing crucible. And tell your friends and have them spread the word. Don't play crucible, Show Bungie how we feel. Boycott crucible tell your friends Ps. If I don't respond to you, that means your not worth my time or effort.
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What elite players? You all make it sound like you are playing elite level players in every match. My 1.23 kd in quickplay is top 14%. That means that 86% of qp players have a lower kd than mine. Even accounting for playtime, you are bound to mostly match with average to slightly above/below average players. That's certainly been my case since this change was implemented.
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The content creators are the advertisement arm of Bungie - of course they are going to create an environment that best suites their needs over the general player base. Watching a D2 streamer showcase a specific gun roll and demonstrate how effective it is in pvp drives the community to do what Bungie wants them doing: [b][i]farm[/i][/b]. The more time spent in the game = the increase in probability that you will find the mtx store = the increased opportunity that Bungie makes their $$$. This is F2P MMO 101.
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13 RepliesSo because you are unwilling to improve, the people who spent thousands of hours to get as good as they are should have bad games?
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1 Reply[quote]All the YouTube content creators are going on about how much better things are with CBMM. Most of them are not idiots CBMM is better for them because they are highly skilled and they think getting 50+ bombs against good players is good content. For the top 5-20% of players on any playlist CBMM is clearly better (for a while) there is no doubt about that. However look at last seasons Trials. Here the premium PVP content was CBMM and wins. What happened. The population plummeted, and the number of cheaters rocketed. CBMM was better for a while and then it just wasn't! Everyone who stopped playing trails is at least an above average PVP, and lots of them are high level approaching elite. Yet they stopped playing because they just had no chance of winning. As the population fell things got worse, a downward spiral Population is the most important thing for quality pvp game play by far. CBMM increases the population that top players can play against (for a while) so they love it. But what about the people who aren't so skilled? What happens to them is they get crushed and stop playing. Now Bungie have removed SBMM from every playlist apart from Survival (comp). So in every 6v6 PVP match there will be 2-4 players who are way better than the other 8-10 players. This means that 8-10 players will have a poor experience in every single match. These people will play less and eventually stop playing, reducing the player population and creating another downward spiral. The solution is simple measure peoples skill. Use SBMM for the less skilled to encourage the player population to grow. Use CBMM for the highly skilled where it actually has a +ve effect on the overall player experience. Bungie and the Destiny community need to ensure that PVP activities are fun for all players no matter what their skill level - and yes this includes Trials. CBMM for all skill levels has to go. It is corrosive and destroys player populations. Finally the community is more than just the elite players and content creators. Bungie please listen to a wider audience.[/quote] GiT GuD
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Edited by DiZ: 6/19/2020 12:55:54 PMNot really here to argue for SBMM or CBMM, but I do want to point out that trying to use the blunder of Trials of Osiris's re-release to support your argument falls pretty flat imo. Trials didn't come out "raw" as many have said because of the mix of connection/card-based matchmaking. I'd say these are the actual reasons: - [b]PC exclusive reasons[/b]: [spoiler]Cheaters/hackers and incredibly frequent beaver error codes. From what I've seen and heard, it was quite literally impossible to play a card to Flawless or even 7 wins without having to deal with either. You'd either deal with blatant hackers with things like infinite Rocket Launcher ammo and weapons that fired twice as fast Trace Rifles(that were certainly [b]NOT[/b] Trace Rifles), a new infinite self-rez with no Super or even Sunsinger subclass in the game, less obvious aimbotters/wallhackers, or have someone on yours or the enemy team get booted to orbit by the game messing up. Some were cheating to make money, while others would literally pay to continue using cheats at both a financial and temporal loss for what can only be described as "personal reasons." Both would've still undoubtedly occurred even if Trials was SBMM. Most people won't want to continuously play a gamemode where winning and losing weigh heavily, yet also face players who are absolutely unbeatable(not because of any skill difference), or having a serious risk getting booted(especially on the Flawless match) when the Mercy's already been used. And that likely happened because of one of the aforementioned reasons. Many people have better things to do, and if they don't, they'll find them. [/spoiler] - The reward structure: [spoiler]- Inability to obtain any and all loot without at least getting to 3 wins - Tokens expiring at weekly reset so they can't be carried over(this led to terrible cases like having 100+ tokens but being unable to keep them or turn them in) - Lack of real incentive to use passages besides Mercy(first loss/disconnect is forgiven) or Wealth(bonus tokens) aside from niche circumstances(Confidence for Flawless title) - Extremely restrictive(and as we saw in the 2nd week with the Shotgun as the first reward, abusable) loot pool - Lack of incentive to go high in a card again after going Flawless once for higher-skilled/above average players who want to farm loot drops - Lack of incentive to go Flawless(I and many I've known only do so for Enhancement materials or if asked to help by friends) [/spoiler]
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6 RepliesI dissagree with this the idea that 8-10 players in each game have a bad match can’t be true. 16% of players are below average and and 16% are above average then there is a large group of 68% who are average and are relatively close in skill. So if anything it’s more common that it will be 8-10+ that are enjoying the match on average. Also there are some bad players that like sbmm I’ve spoken to some on the forums. I honestly think that this is best for the game. And I think they did listen to the wider Audience you just aren’t part of it sadly.
