So I've been seeing a lot of "casuals are ruining (insert activity) in Destiny" takes again the last week or two and then yesterday I saw the latest Forbes article from Tassi on the subject and think it's time to point out a few things.
To start, for anyone who didn't read it, I'm not linking it, look out up if you want, but the gist of it was whether or not Destiny is being catered too much towards "casuals" (and he chose to say "again"), as well as bringing up a tweet thread by Gladd complaining about the same thing and how the game needs to be more hardcore because poor Gladd isn't able to make enough content.
This pile is deep.
I'm going to start with wondering why a Forbes writer is posting a tale of woe about a dude who is one of the raunchiest members of the community and the streamer equivalent of a 90's shock-jock radio host, with content about violating himself with hamsters and posting from his Summit visit about swinging his junk in his hotel window.
Real classy dude that totally we should feel bad the game is too easy for him.
But beyond that, the whole "casual" as a slur garbage is the gaming equivalent of classism and grade school indoctrination into right wing hate culture. Playing a game for a living doesn't make anyone more "hard core" or more of a "gamer" than someone who can only play when life lets them throughout the week and this constant use of "casuals" to demean and dismiss, as well as blame all the game's "problems" is a load of crap.
Then there's the fact that, I don't know about anyone else, but I know I'm tired of listening to the Gladds and Gothalions of the community always ripping "casuals", the game and Bungie the second everything isn't 100% about them when the high profile influencers have driven the lion's share of development feedback the last 4 years.
The game that exists today is massively a product of their criticisms and complaints and it's garbage that they pretend that they're not culpable for where things stand.
So let's backtrack -again-, because it seems like history gets rewritten a lot.
Destiny 1 was a great game, but one that Bungie felt needed a fresh start and a new game for D2 and despite all the negative takes that piled on after the first month of vanilla D2, it did get a lot right, starting with investment. It was a game that allowed players to come and go and not feel left behind, and also allowed us to play multiple characters with ease and constantly change not only characters, but loadouts and play styles.
It also had true endgame difficulty content that was deeply challenging with prestige difficulty raids and a sandbox that made content much more challenging overall than we have now.
Certainly the game was not perfect, and both PvP and PvE needed to be better overall, but there was a really good foundation there that ultimately never got a chance to hit it's stride because a month in, all the big name content creators and high level PvP players went completely toxic on the game and started all the "dead game" crap and making anti-Destiny/Bungie content because it got easy likes and views.
So let's look at where the game is today with the complaints about not enough or drip-fed content, and underwhelming exotic quests and look back at what that massive backlash led to, which was the studio basically stopping development on a lot of future content and moving essentially the entire studio to making massive changes and rebooting a game that was itself a reboot.
The massive changes to the sandbox, leveling, investment, economy, etc came at a cost. Instead of building onto what existed and adding more weapons, armor, strikes, missions, etc, resources went to the reboot; and certainly there was still the content that had already been started and was in the pipeline with Gambit, Warmind and Forsaken, but there's no doubt that the deeper we got into year 2, the more we caught up to the effects of diverted resources year 1.
Then we had year 2 itself which was the baby of all that hate and toxicity from the "hard core" and influencer crowd. It was ultra punishing in leveling, in investment, in grinding, in RNG and in PvP as well with the high profile PvP influencers pressuring Bungie into removing skill from matchmaking.
And all the big names patted themselves on the back because they had "saved Destiny". Until around Season of the Drifter when everyone else checked out of PvE and PvP because we couldn't take it anymore and wanted a game, not another job.
Oh, and another casualty of overall lack of development resources in year 2 was hard mode raids. I could be wrong, but I would be shocked if the decision to go with one difficulty wasn't affected by trying to catch up elsewhere.
So then what happened?
Bungie not only had to use more resources to once more make big changes to PvP, investment, economy, armor, etc, but they also split with Activision due to friction from the way year 2 devolved.
So here we are in year 3 and Bungie have tried to keep the content structure that the community and the big names have said they like with seasonal content and new things every few weeks/months.
We've also seen new arena after new arena instead of strikes and updates to older content like planet vendors, because this was also feedback that was given on what the "community" wanted more of.
So here we are in year 3 with Bungie still playing catch-up and trying to get to the point where they can just build forward without constantly having to backtrack and reboot and it's not surprising that content is light at this point when you look at the big picture and how much development time was lost that could/should have been more new content we're getting now instead of what was spent on rebuilding then.
Does anyone believe that Bungie doesn't want factions back in the game? The fact that we have nothing yet regarding them speaks volumes to how big a game of catch-up Bungie is playing, and certainly that is on the decision makers at the studio as well, and there have been calls that missed the mark, but there's also still been a lot of good and at some point the studio needs to say this is the game we believe in and stick to their vision.
The game isn't too "casual". It certainly could use more legitimate endgame, but that doesn't mean the game shouldn't be accessible, and even the raids that exist are now leveling content vs true endgame because of the worlds first races. So once more content that could be more challenging that isn't has nothing to do with "casual" players and everything to do with the high profile players.
The game needs a lot, but at this point what it needs is new weapons and armor, new strikes, factions, more actual story, etc, and hard modes for existing content like raids. What it doesn't need is Paul Tassi, Gladd, Gothalion or other big names pressuring Bungie into once more making infrastructure changes to make the game more "hard core".
We literally went through this with vanilla D2 into Forsaken and I honestly can't believe we're seeing the same garbage now. Crapping on regular players to make the game better for content creators didn't work the first time, let's not keep making the same mistakes.
The game can have content for those players without sacrificing everyone else and if players are willing to take a deep breath and give Bungie time to just build forward, I think we'll see a game that everyone can be happy with and love.
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Lost Sols you make some valid points and i agree that eververse should be removed from this game but,Something dark stirs in the depths of the Hellmouth. We can feel it. A Hive abomination bred for unthinkable evil. We must pierce the veil of their Summoning Pits and destroy this creature before the Hive unleash it upon us all.
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casuals are an easy target it seems with this game all i can say to you guys is ignore the hate your getting (because i sure do) also play how you want and play what you want this is coming form a player who was once a hardcore player with destiny but when family and work took over life became a good old casual =]
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I'm not sure why but when any 1 streamer says the game needs to be more for the hardcore (example glades latest tweet) every person on here thinks it's speaks for 100,000 of the player base, when it only speaks for one person . Anyway no game studio could and never will be able to cater a game to everyone, unless you get the attention of the young kids and the game becomes the culture any studio should always expect a much lower player base than the purchase base.
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>wall of text >vitriolic openings about Gladd Thankful that I won’t be reading this.
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33 RepliesI was in the top 4 percent in hrs played in destiny 1 I’m 45 and a CASUAL. The problem with the world today is the -blam!-ing internet and social media. Growing up playing games on every system ever made-no internet was the greatest thing ever. There was no divide between people who played, people who streamed or people who don’t even play but damn sure want to insert their two cents. The game needs to be inclusive. Matchmaking for everything. Or at least the option. Games are supposed to be fun and bring people together. Having guns only certain people can get or certain activities that only certain people can do isn’t fun for anyone. Instead of these guys posting solo flawless everything on YouTube that most people can’t do is frustrating and unrealistic. In destiny 1 you could come in last place in the crucible but still get a amazing drop at the end of the match. You didn’t have to be a pvp god. I played pvp just for that reason. I’ve played pvp 2 times in destiny 2. I’m rambling and probably got off topic in a couple places but oh well it’s Friday and I’m very relaxed !! Wanna play destiny but as a solo player there’s nothing to do. I’m sad. I’ve turned on destiny 3 times since I’ve been home and then just turned it off. I should be doing a raid or having fun but somewhere along the way destiny lost its way and the divide between players sucks.
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2 RepliesAs a casual gamer, i'm enjoying D2 a lot, and i'm sure you make valid points. However, the wall of text you posted was a bit long, so i didn't read it. Brevity is the soul of wit, as they say.
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Sbmm was removed on accident and kept that way due to positive response at the time.
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5 RepliesEdited by OnlyGeowgie: 1/11/2020 12:07:30 AMGreat post, unfortunately most of us functioning members of society, with valuable service producing jobs who are unable to dedicate hours upon hours each and every day towards a video game, do not make our voices heard enough, we simply do not have the time. What you instead get is individuals (like most of the comments section below) who end up steering direction as a vocal minority. Individuals with maturity levels as seen below probably don't even understand what they think of themselves as individuals, they are even less likely to have a set definition of their ideal vision for a game as complex as Destiny, which exists to please a variety of audiences, as soon as somebody gives them a new nugget of something to get angry over and jump behind the megaphone barricade they will do it without little original thought, but will own it like they are the one who raised the point to begin with. Tl;dr- Bungie need to stop listening to anyone who isn't themselves, otherwise we will continuously go around in circles.
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1 ReplyThe game is anything but casual now, it's all grind grind grind and drip feed content for all the hardcore players who can't control themselves and have to play 10 hours a day because they are so hardcore.
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Just make the game fun, the cash will follow. The starting bar should not be set at 'streamer' for content, otherwise you see the sad figures that we have of the vast majority of the community never even attempting a single raid.
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I’m glad most people look down on this.
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9 RepliesWhat you have are streamers abusing their platforms trying to pressure Bungie into customizing this game to suit the best interests of their channels....and not the community as a whole. To Gladd's credit, he is actually a dedicated Destiny player. Gothalion only plays this game when there is a major content drop...and then is off to something else when he's wrung the game out for all its worth to his business. While I am tired of hearing this crap from them, Bungie's on the hook for this as well. Its THEIR game...and its THEIR job to know this community well enough to know which voices to listen to...and which ones to ignore. The problem is that Bungie has been WAY too cozy with these guys, and WAY too gullible in their thinking that they speak for the community. Teh game ran into the problems it did last year, because Bungie essentially started working for the streamers...rather than seeing the streamers as nothing more than viral advertising. Which is what they are. Datto "gets it". He once said, "Bungie doesn't owe me a living." And both the Bungie and the Streamers need to understand that.
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This game isn't focused on any group of players. And because of this, it will never reach it's true potential. D1 started off being focused on a hardcore grinder, but far too many people complained about doing the Relic Iron farm on Mars, being "forever 29" or not being able to do end game activities because they couldn't get the GHorn. So Bungie/Activision, unsure which, decided to remove as much of the grind as possible and make easy mode exotics, no need to get materials to upgrade guns and armor, make 90209358235 ways to reach max level and then light. Then people were flying through content, grew bored, and said there was nothing to do. Now Bungie has tried to be a mixture of both and because of this there is no real core audience. Anything they do is wrong because they're trying to cater to everyone, while they're really catering to no one. That and they tried to go E-sports with the launch of D2 which was a colossal failure. I originally bought Destiny for the hardcore grindy aspect of the game. I was the "forever 29" until Iron Banner allowed me to hit 30. And then a couple weeks into Dark Below I was 34. This made me sad at how easy they made it to reach max level and others also said it was too easy to reach max level and there was nothing to play for...then you had another segment of the community who threw a fit that the Thorn quest was way too difficult. D2 is hampered by much of the same at this point. People complaining that there was too many steps for Thorn and then it was way too easy to get Devils Ruin. Bungie created this mess by listening to some of the garbage spewed on these boards back in 2014/2015.
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Edited by Erijian: 1/11/2020 7:37:42 AMDestiny 2 isn't "too casual" it's "too easy." And yes, you can throw the blame at players who would be considered casual for the overall difficulty of the game currently. At the end of the day it's all Bungie's fault though as they want the game to be as accessible as possible while also providing no powerful rewards behind difficult content as it's "not fair" to those who can't obtain them. Meanwhile the state of PvP supports the casual playerbase due to all of the "low skill high reward" tools we have currently, alongside SBMM to protect said players from challenging more skilled players. It's disgusting, there is too much focus on the everyday player than a person who actually plays every day.
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Sols - great post. Everybody has a different opinion on what is deemed casual vs deemed challenging/hardcore. Bungie make the game & the community play the game. Yes, some content creators do make the game look far too easy sometimes by soloing a 980 nightfall, or zero hour etc but that doesn't mean it's not challenging. To the people who [b]don't[/b] play 26 hours per day 9 days per week, these activities are a challenge but not impossible. I have no doubt if Bungie released an activity that was quite possibly impossible, the community would outcry with how difficult it is. Finally, I agree with you post. 100% spot on!
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Nah I blame YouTubers they -blam!- too much.
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mm what i see in the game is , ez activity for casual's so no one can rlly cry for '''''fomo'''
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You're all over the place here. I'll start with a couple points I agree with ya on. We don't need people like G and Glaad (and Datto, an extra -blam!- you to him). The game has a lot of problems. They tried putting grind back in the game, and frankly the time invested doesn't always feel like the reward was worth it. 100% agree. But you mentioned the shit show that was vanilla. A big part of that was due to it being too geared towards casuals. They're reverting back to that. They made single player comp mode (not necessarily bad), but there's no requirements for legend anymore, and the fabled (and heroic) weapons aren't near as good. The game has problems, but most people are forgetting that Bungie has a fraction of the resources. I expected this year to be a little light overall. Wasn't expecting the type of mess we're in now. TL;DR Games not perfect, it is becoming more geared to casuals, big time streamers suck, Y3 is going to have a lot of light content drops.
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Casual? This game has become the very first " first person grinder shooter " in video game history. It's just grind, grind, grind and for good measure, just grind some more...
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Shawdowkeep is casual compared with forsaken, the game as nothin to chase. Exotic and given without any difficulty. Yeah back to casual again. I played forsaken for a whole year. Shadowkeep 1 month was enough nothing to hold me. Bungie is playing the free to play bullshit and not focussing on its core player and what the community really like.
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2 RepliesThere are two types of Casuals. Casual #1. Casuals who destroyed D2 Launch by having everything handed to us and made everything easy. Casual #2. Working Class Casuals. Casuals who have a life. A Job, Social Lives etc etc. who don’t have time to freeload the game and no life it to death. Bungie should definitely cater to the Working Class Casuals for sure. Bungie’s FOMO infested Seasonal Model definitely caters to the freeloaders, no lifers and Streamers.
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Edited by TheWanderer17: 1/11/2020 4:09:51 AMHmmmm... ...What is this non sense arguing... The game needs to cater to casuals, dedicated, and hardcore simultaneously. That is why there is a range of things to complete ranging from a few hours to several days. This all seems so pretty as these rates of growth (or content completion) are always in flux as they leverage analytics to continue iterating on the gaming experience.
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69 Replies[quote]But beyond that, the whole "casual" as a slur garbage is the gaming equivalent of classism and grade school indoctrination into right wing hate culture. [/quote] ROTFLMAO, you are complaining about "slurs" then you slur people on the political right. Hate to break this to you but the left has just as much hate as the right. Everyone is capable of hate then masking it with accusations on others.
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I enjoyed this conversation, you and Kelly could start you're own talk channel!
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Edited by Cosmic Owl: 1/11/2020 3:49:07 AMWell the casuals thing goes both ways. No it shouldn’t be a slur because let’s be honest, it’s a game, it’s supposed to be casual. But at the same time, people also need to realize that games should appeal to hardcore gamers as well or people who want a high skill ceiling and just as some content needs to be easy and appeal to people that don’t have a ton of time to put in, there also needs to be content for the high end as well. The problem is the “casuals” often come into forums complaining that some things are too hard and want them dumbed down, or they want things nerfed in PvP because they don’t understand how to deal with it. The biggest issue there is that some people can’t handle the idea that certain aspects of the game may be out of their reach, but then how are devs supposed to appeal to everyone? I wouldn’t describe myself as hardcore or casual, maybe somewhere in the middle, but personally I’m ok with their being certain things I might not get around to doing. I like that there are challenging things to do in a game that I may or may not get to. But I agree that hardcore shouldn’t translate into grindy or all time consuming activities just so streamers can have content.