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9/15/2019 9:32:00 AM
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Please help me understand Hunters in PvP (coming from a Hunter main)
When Destiny 2 on PC came out on HumbleBundle Monthly sometime in Y1, I installed it, ran it, and created a Hunter. To me, it wasn't even a choice. Every game I've ever played, I've gone for the "you'll be and never know what hit you" playstyle, be it ranger, rogue, thief, assassin, siren, amazon, demon hunter, shadow, stalker, hacker, you name it. I've tried all sorts of classes but I've never really felt the appeal of the fighter, caster, healer or zookeeper archetypes. I hunt alone and I like to outsmart my prey tactically, and outskill them mechanically. This translates to FPS games too, and as far back as UT99 I've favored skill-based weapons such as the shock rifle, ripper and sniper.
Enter Destiny 2 PvP, and suddenly I have no idea what I'm doing :)
I keep reading how hunters are OP in the Crucible but I just don't see it in my gameplay (which you can easily see in my stats.) I get invisible but even "The Predator" did a better job at it, and there's no concept of shadow in this game that augments my invis. I jump over people's heads and get my butt full of shotgun pellets or fusion bolts, or a Shoryuken. I get sniped in the head mid-dodge. I am half the size of a Titan but they can't catch up to them. I am supposed to be the agile one but Warlocks get blink. I have a knife but I can't backstab OHK them even if "invisible," nor OHK headshot them with a throwing knife even if invisible. I have no bonus to crit damage, no bonus to small arms, lightweight or precision frames damage/handling/accuracy/dexterity, and also no balancing disadvantages such as lower health, damage resistance, or penalty to aggressive frames or oversized weapon stats.
What am I missing? Obviously you can't all be wrong, but something critical has been eluding me for the past year and a half. What makes a Hunter a Hunter in the Crucible that gets it so much hate from other classes, including OEM striker titans who have been on top for a while now? And is it really hate, or can a Hunter be formidable enough to actually strike fear in the Crucible? Please help me out, regardless of your class. I'd really like to learn, and improve.
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Personally I think for a 1hk for hunters liars handshake should be changed to activate cross counter on perfect precision kills (all shots to kill were headshots) or something else. If they maybe buff the truesight duration for way of the wraith, that combo could be really good. Here’s my way of thinking: Crouch-Precision kill with sniper-get truesight and invis-sneak up on somebody and melee them
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3 RepliesPeople need something to blame. Hunters basically have to rely on shooting, so people get salty when their OHK ability or Ability spam or class cheese doesn’t work. As far as invisibility, it was nerfed like 3 months into Vanilla D2 Bc all these people who have “skill” couldn’t hit a target for less than 2 seconds without auto aim. Lol. Adapt and overcome. It’s what we do.
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tbh hunters feel like they don't even have any meaningful abilities, they have good passive abilities but the only thing hunters have combat wise is triple jump stompeez and thats only really good on console, I play a match of quickplay, pop my bottom tree arc staff, have a speed boost from stompeez and focused breathing, but people are still way too quick for me to catch up too (and people get mad when I say a ranged super like dawnblade is a little bit too fast), I have to jump to dodge something like handheld super nova or shoulder charge (jumping doesn't even save me from shoulder charge half the time) and I have icarus grip on all my guns cause of that, and I get hatemail from all the warlocks and titans complaining ONLY about me jumping. also, I'm glad somebody else wants the agile sneaky character fantasy for hunters that for some reason titans have.
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6 RepliesHunter is the most played class, people get mad at the things which kill them the most often.
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1 ReplyThe whole point of hunters in pvp is to... Be a nerf sponge for bungie ;) Oh and for something for the other classes to -blam!- about
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1 ReplyEdited by MudShadow: 9/15/2019 2:27:16 PMThey had Blink in D1 as well as a bunch of other ~assassin like abilities. Such as backstab, which allowed them to OHK from a backstab. And Blink strike which was a teleporting melee attack. tripmine use to actually kill opponents instead of just damaging their health. The class was too popular though and got nerfed for D2. People mainly still say they're strong in PVP as it's a stigma they've built up since Destiny 1. On Console you can use their double jump shenanigans to make it difficult for players to target you as everyone is on a controller and can't aim properly. Also they have the highest mobility which means they can strafe quicker than other classes, which can be used in firefights to your advantage by starfing left and right to make it difficult for your opponent to land shots. That and invisbility is pretty much all they got going. Their supers are out matched by Warlocks and Titans, their grenades are also beaten by Warlocks and Titans. Their melee is beaten by Titans. And about even with Warlocks. No PVP defining exotics such as OEM. All of their exotics add neutral game enhancements instead of directly increasing their overall kill potential.
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2 RepliesLiterally just the jump and dodge is what people blame it on. Jump got nerfed since D1. Used to have double Strafe jump with Bones of Eao, now we have Stompeez that just make you jump a little higher. Often the people who think Hunter jump is overpowered are the ones who think Shoulder Charge isn’t good, and their favorite flavor of crayon is blue.
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Edited by M_proved: 9/18/2019 10:31:08 AMthe bad thing is since most players go hunter..everyone thinks they are OP. then in pvp when they lose to a hunter it feels like its OP even when its not. since they are the majority bungie isnt gonna buff the purposely so ut can feel balance when in reality its more difficult to play as hunter than the other classes overall. some of this is by design, because some players want a class that provides a lil learning curve to master..its just difficult to think from that perspective when switching to one of the other classes and instantly rising in KDA. *i was a hunter main til midway through destiny2 and switched to warlock but also played titan quiet a bit when my OEM dropped lol.
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5 RepliesHunters have the highest ceiling if you’re a good player. If you’re a bad player, you can just switch to striker titan with OEM and play the game on easy mode.
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They were good in D1. Now in D2, they aren't as good. I actually started playing on my Hunter again in D2, and I feel my time as a Warlock has helped me play Hunter better (I am a Warlock main). I've used the skills of timing my jumps, aim, as well as other things, which has helped me. So, basically what I'm saying is that it depends on the player skill, and using other characters can help in some ways, like it helped me. Yes, Hunters had good exotics in D1 (Bones of Eao was my favorite D1 Hunter exotic), but D2 has a cheap knockoff of that exotic (Stomp-EE5), but they are still decent. There are many things I wish Hunters could do in D2 that they could do in D1, but who knows what Bungo will do.
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The only hunter ability that can be OP is the super which now I have to be the crafty little hunter I am to have a chance at opposing other supers (using arc staff to get first hit in an encounter then back off and land a second). Other than that everything is gun play so I’ve gotten good. Dodge just reloads my weapon and sometimes gets me out of sticky situations, none of my melees can OHK and the class is naturally squishy. People are mad because their OHK skills get bested by someone that can use that lump of meat behind their eyes to extinguish the instant win-buttons Bungie has so gracefully bestowed upon the less fortunate Crucible players. In the hands of a skilled player Titan or Warlock have a definite advantage and since Spectral nerf Hunters aren’t too viable in pvp, especially in competitive.
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Hunters are mainly “OP” on console because console fov and sensitivity is garbage and when they jump it’s difficult to track them if they’re taking advantage of their evasiveness. On PC hunters are kinda lackluster since it’s more difficult to take advantage of their evasiveness. I’d recommend using a titan or warlock on PC since their abilities are better.
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Edited by SWEDEN: 9/17/2019 7:27:24 AMExactly how I feel when I play as a hunter. But when I switch to my titan, well that’s a different story.....for me it’s just unbelievable how Bungie hasn’t nerfed bottom tree striker with oem.
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9 RepliesEdited by Carbiniz3r: 9/16/2019 7:31:29 PM...its almost like hunter mains dont realize they are the best class in the game and anything that threatens their elitest minds must be op and nerfed. "Nerf Jotunn" "Nerf OEM" Meanwhile, says nothing about how spectral blades is damn near invincible to kill and has the best melee cancelling double jump.
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They're mostly op on console because they can get high ground so quickly it's hard to see them with a small fov
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It's 100% in the double jump and the upgraded mobility stat.
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5 RepliesHunters WERE the meta in D1. As we had blink on a blade dancer, and skip grenades did insane damage. Blade Dancers were so hard to catch, I remember duping and 1v3ing so many teams in elim, skirmish and trials because the movement was so smooth and worked so well with me. It's just not like that in D2 though, I feel that actually Titans are the OP class. Especially with one eyed mask and bottom tree striker (you've probably read that else where 15 times)
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Hunter’s main appeal is their ability to enhance a player’s gun skills and get the most out of a player’s ability to aim, precisely kill, and move. Whereas Titans and Warlocks have abilities that act separately to one’s weapons and movement (generalization), Hunters have abilities that work with their weapons and/or movement (again, generalization). To play Hunter effectively, you must first learn to play the very basics effectively (as you do with all classes) and then build upon that foundation with the utility that benefits like dodge, invisibility, Hunter jumps, and other abilities add to that foundation. This is different than Warlocks and Titans as they typically learn how to use their abilities independently from their weapons and movement. Handheld supernova doesn’t make your weapon any more effective and neither does shoulder charge and so you don’t rely on them every gunfight. Titans and Warlocks get occasional “cheap” (as some may call it) kills through abilities whereas hunters either get information (flawless execution, enhanced tracker) or enhanced kill potential or movement options (chains of woe, again flawless execution, focused breathing, etc.). For a bad player, a single cheap kill is measurably better than the vague idea of information, kill “potential,” or movement. For a great player, a single cheap kill is of little meaning when information, enhanced kill potential, and movement can result in multiple kills over the course of a game and typically isn’t on some cooldown they need to work around. Obviously it is a little more complicated than this, but this is the general gist of where Hunters get their strength from. A player that acts on these strengths can find more value than a player that relies on the cheesy kills a Warlock or Titan subclass offers. This issue is a lot more nuanced depending on platform, subclass, exotic armor usage, etc. and this isn’t to say Hunters are definitively the best class in the game (I personally don’t believe so but I’d say the three are relatively close) but if you want to make use of Hunter, you have to learn to become dependent on many of the small benefits the class gives you in each gunfight and to stop seeing them as some independent factor. You should be using a lot of what Hunter gives you every single gunfight whereas in Titans and Warlocks you should be saving some cooldowns for when you feel most threatened and not just use them every gunfight.
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Hunters have the "highest potential" but they also have the lowest. Think of it like a ceiling and floor with the space between being performance: Titans and Warlocks have their floor at different heights where starting players begin, but their ceilings don't go as high. New players can take advantage of the majority of mechanics with relative ease without spending time picking up nuances. That's not to say players using these classes are unskilled or relying on 'crutches' or whatever, just that you can pick up the class and get an understanding of how to function and make use of the class faster/better. Hunters.... you come in VERY low; your advantages are more tactical and require more setup, awareness, prep, and the like. You're vertically mobile against horizontally mobile enemies and on maps with mostly limited vertical positioning available. Your abilities (grenades, melee abilities, and dodge) can provide situationally useful benefits, but they can also be PUNISHED. Basically, the skill "floor" is low enough that you need to develop an understanding and build on it for the "neutral game" rather than being able to dominate through abilities. That, in this game, takes skills that some never develop. That leaves A LOT of hunters peaking well before the Hunter "skill ceiling" because at a certain point, comprehension comes much slower. And that's something a lot of titans/warlocks and even hunters don't understand; they confuse POTENTIAL for realistic expectation. Yes, a lot of the top-level players may PVP as hunters, but that's just it: they're TOP LEVEL. they've reached the ceiling or damn near it while most hunters are trapped in the space between and, in that space, the class doesn't hold up as well against the others. Some can break through and climb farther than the others or the skill ceilings of the other classes, but most never will.
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That’s because Hunters aren’t OP. Titans tend to be either stupid or just mean people in general. So they blame their lack of skill on the Hunters being too overpowered. They complained when blade barrage was added, meanwhile they themselves already had a panic super in Fists of Havoc. (HECK, it was even a roaming super 😂). They complained about the double jump. Meanwhile what those idiots forget is that sometimes it’s actually hindering, especially in small jumps. Oh, and if you, a Hunter complain, all you get back is [spoiler][b][i][u]Motherf...ing nigga![/u][/i][/b][/spoiler]
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Nope. You get it. That's why D2 doesn't work as whatever bungie is hawking it as... [i]this[/i] time.
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Let’s break this down 1. Hunter tactical advantage is mobility not the mobility stat the jump and change in direction on a dime and the dodge to get yourself out of a pinch 2. Perks of subclass trees are not so much abilities as they are combo pieces for your gunplay A. Solar subclass advance reload focus on precision throwing knife to be combo with exotic armor to give added effects same with grenades such as tripmine and luring opponents into traps B. Arc focusing more on melee and grenades to strike and move again combo with gunplay and exotics to improve reload and keep abilities coming to combo with gunplay C. Void abilities to make you invisible and control areas to improve team mechanics to halt a fire team or flank and provide advantages to positioning 3. Gunplay is favored as hunter so it’s mostly about precision and positioning and build 4. Builds are key to hunters as it really depends on play style if you like to push and be aggressive you’ll find certain weapons like chaperone can provide a distinct advantage or if you like to lay back and play range with precision weapons suck as bows scouts and snipers multi tool and other one shot weapons and provide cover for allies and can stack abilities to rack up kills quick All in all don’t rely so much on hunter abilities and supers rely more on your gameplay and play style
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7 RepliesTo understand this you have to accept two things about how Bungie structured the classes in the game. 1. The Classes represent different FIGHTING STYLES, and not "roles" (Healer/DPS/Tank) like they do in MMOs and other RPGs. 2. Hunters are the AGILITY and WEAPONS based fighter in Destiny....which gives them a significant advantage in PVP. Especially since Jon Weisnewski (previous head of Sandbox and then Weapons Design) had a clear bias towards PVP and a goal of turning the Crucible into an e-sport. Results: 1. This lead to Titans and Warlocks abilities largely being declawed and defanged. Titans largely escaped this because they were given a second grenade (an ability taken from Warlocks) and the fact that most of the forward speed of Titan-skating was kept in the game. So Titans can still jet around the Crucible like Iron-Man. 2. Warlocks just got absolutely wrecked. Blink was basically declawed as anything other than an escape panic button. Warlock AoE attacks were absolutely devasted. First Nova Bomb...then Stormtrance....and then Nova Warp. Ad to that a class ability that roots you to one spot and has almost no impact on PVP gun play.....Warlocks basically disappear COMPLETELY from high level PvP play. 3. Hunters basically dominate high level comp play. Their agility makes it much easier for them to escape losing gunfights. Their dodge and their jump makes it difficult to predict what direction they will move. Making them difficult targets. Their speed and agility also gives them a significant advantage in close quarters fights. And their class abilities COMPLIMENT their fighting in PVP. One dodge reloads your weapon (and can get you out of a losing situation when your forced to reload mid-fight). The other dodge is practically an invincibiltiy frame as it immediately changes the location on screen of your head....and also recharges your melee ability in certain situations. Lastly their grenades and meless were optimized for PVP. Their grenades track much further and aggressively (at base) than any other class. Then they have ranged melee attacks. Gunslinger throwing knife which can tip the balance in a 1v1. Nightstalker melee is basically a second grenade with blinds and severely slows an opponent OR can render the Hunter himself invisible. Arcstrider melees can blind and disorient opponents. Then you have exotics that increase these abilities. Gemini Jester can render an opponent basically helpless with a dodge in a CQC fight. Then there's Liar's Handshake, Sixth Coyote....and others. TLDR: Hunters aren't showy or dramatic. But they have an avalanche of abilities that make them FAR easier to play in a game that Bungie is constantly thumbing-the-scale to keep a "gun-based game". This is a combination of their own inherent abilities....and the constant pruning and occasional outright de-clawing of the abilities of other classes when the previous "regime" thought they were encroaching on the "gun game" too much. Oh....and almost all of the top Sandbox and Weapons Design team leaders played Hunters...and personally favored Hand Cannons. Which imo, led to a tremendous biasing of the sandbox....and a massive power drain from Warlocks especially....and "non-precision" primaries and special weapons in general. A biasing that this upcoming patch seems to be trying to repair now that the game is going more the rout of an RPG and less of a pure shooter.
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3 RepliesHunters are the Justin Biebers of Destiny.
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3 RepliesA topic about how Hunters are bad in PvP? Theres a reason why teams are stacked with them in Crucible, and it's not because of the cool hood and Cape combo....
