Disclaimer: Yes I already know this is super unpopular but I do want to voice my opinion since it's something other than 'nerfs bad Bungie sucks.'
I've seen a ton of complaints over the past couple of days on various platforms about Bungie not listening to feedback well enough, [i]and while I think this is valid,[/i] the amount of unhelpful (and sometimes downright toxic) comments/posts is disappointing. As a community it seems rather silly of us to complain about changes we do not like while simultaneously failing to provide constructive criticism. There have been at least a few pieces of good feedback floating around the internet over the past couple of days (looking at you, suggestions for WotW changes), so credit to those folks, but the overwhelming majority of comments/posts have resulted in an overall response that is largely destructive, reflects poorly on the community, and frankly gets us nowhere.
Now for the actual changes themselves: First, what exactly is getting changed? 4 exotic weapons and 6 exotic armors (that's ~8.2% of total current exotics btw) are being adjusted in some way or another, with most of them receiving very targeted nerfs.
First up is the big one: Whisper of the Worm. Whisper has long been [b]the[/b] weapon for killing bosses, with very few weapons ever coming close to its DPS after the first few seconds. Thankfully, over the past few months some power weapons have been buffed to try to make them competitive with Whisper's DPS (things like grenade launchers and certain shotguns, including Lord of Wolves). However, Whisper still reigns as king for most boss fights and makes many of them trivial *cough* Insurrection Prime *cough*, so understandably it is being brought down to be more in line with other power weapons. With the Season 7 patch, Whisper's ammo changes are being reverted but it now pulls ammo from reserves, meaning you can no longer infinitely shoot. So, for the first 18 shots your damage will be unchanged, but after that you'll have to find yourself more ammo. While I will miss the skill-related bonus of getting ammo back, I do not mind this change much at all. The amount of times you shoot more than 18 uninterrupted shots with Whisper is low, and you can just throw on 3 pieces of armor with Heavy Ammo Finder and fairly reliably get some ammo in between DPS phases for whatever boss you are fighting. This nerf is clearly targeted at keeping people from infinitely shooting bosses with one of the game's highest DPS weapons and thereby trivializing encounters, and I can't fault Bungie for wanting to take away the infinite nature of it. Is Whisper super powerful and fun right now? Yes. Will it still be super powerful and fun after the changes? Yes, but you'll have to actually work to make sure you have ammo, [i]just like every other power weapon[/i].
Next up is Sleeper Simulant: It's not gonna do stupid damage on specific bosses that you can get a precision hit and several bounces with. Also, non-precision damage is getting buffed. This is the most targeted nerf, as it only affects bosses and even then only affects a minority of them. There's been speculation that this change is in anticipation of upcoming content that Sleeper might be able to decimate because of certain ricochets, and I would not be surprised at all if that is the case. This nerf will affect only edge cases in PvE, and I am not concerned about it at all.
The last major weapon change for PvE is Lord of Wolves: It's being hit with a 20% PvE damage nerf, and Release the Wolves is getting a QoL change and an ambiguous adjustment. As for the flat damage nerf, do not worry; Lord of Wolves ought to still be the highest DPS shotgun in the game with the exception of Legend of Acrius, assuming you don't miss headshots ever. The one caveat to this is that the adjustment to the Release the Wolves states "PvE damage and range bonuses on this effect has been removed and replaced with a universal damage bonus instead," which seems to indicate that it is receiving both a nerf and a buff, so it'll take some testing to see how this all shakes out. Expect Lord of Wolves to still be top-tier for DPS.
Finally, the last weapon being changed is Ace of Spades: All you need to know is less two-taps and Memento Mori goes away upon stowing Ace. This gun is a menace in the Crucible on PC, and it isn't surprising to see it nerfed, although I would like to see a modest decrease to its range. On a somewhat related note, I know I am not alone in saying Bungie still needs to sort out the disparities between Hand Cannons on controller vs M&K, as it is rather hard to balance things like Ace of Spades and Luna's Howl/Not Forgotten. One platform is always going to feel the nerfs much harder than the other until this gets sorted out, and the Crucible clearly suffers because of it.
I'm going to group the armor changes together given that they're receiving mechanically the same changes. Skull of Dire Ahamkara, Orpheus Rigs, and Phoenix Protocol are all receiving diminishing returns on their super energy return. This means that they'll still create the same amount of energy as before for the first few kills/assists, but will see less returns as you kill even more (think of something like the recent changes to Everlasting Fire from Dawnblade's Attunement of Flame). These changes are arguably the most subjective, but I think that they are overall healthy for the sandbox. As a warlock main for over four years now, I can safely say that I have never been so bored in PvE as I have been for the past few months. Was new and improved Skull of Dire Ahamkara fun for the first few weeks? Sure. Is Phoenix Protocol super helpful? Of course. While the power fantasy of these super regen exotics feels good, it again contributes to the trivialization of endgame content. I miss the days of actually having to manage my abilities instead of mindlessly spamming my super button near a cluster of adds. Well of Radiance is hands-down the most effective super for nearly every boss fight, and Nova Bomb is usually the best burst super for add clear, not to mention it chunks bosses too. Having these supers up constantly restricts the amount of gunplay along with the amount of decision-making required when using supers in endgame content. It does not feel good for me to know I am often putting myself and/or my team at a disadvantage when I have my super available by choosing to shoot enemies instead of just spamming supers. I wish I was actually forced to make decisions and properly position myself instead of just running around and spamming Well of Radiance without a care in the world. I will hardly miss the current state of these two exotics, and I am looking forward to feeling less restricted in end-game content. I cannot speak to Orpheus Rigs very well given that I've essentially abandoned my hunter, but I can sympathize more with the indirect nerf to tether, although it will obviously still be fantastic for orb generation. Another very important thing to keep in mind is that we have absolutely no idea how harsh these nerfs will feel. If these exotics still consistently allow players to get back 2/3-3/4 of their super, it'll only take a few extra orbs to make up for the loss, which is very easy to do. Overall, we're going to have to make more decisions yes, but I wouldn't worry about these nerfs until we see them.
As for the other super regen exotics, Bungie stated "Shards of Galanor and Ursa Furiosa had their Super gain caps reduced to be in parity with other Super Exotic changes." What does this mean? It seems like situations in which you get a very large portion of your super back from these two exotics are going to be less common, but we have no clue what this "parity" will look like so it's really just anyone's guess. These two exotics aren't particularly great, so hopefully this simply reduces edge cases, but it's certainly a "wait-and-see" type of change.
Finally, Gwisin Vest gives back less energy for killing Guardians. Spectral Blades was clearly way overtuned in PvP, so I don't think this one will ruffle too many feathers. The Crucible has bigger problems anyways.
So, what's the big picture? Two boss-shredding weapons are being toned down but will still be fantastic for DPS. Hopefully these changes make way for some of the other top boss DPS contenders. One exotic is having its edge cases hit hard but remains largely unchanged. Another weapon is receiving changes to make it less dominant in Crucible. Super regen exotic armors are being toned down to reduce mind-numbing gameplay and encourage other options. Will power fantasy be decreased a bit? Yes, but if it means more interesting gameplay, I am completely okay with that.
I'd love to see what other people have to say, so please leave a reply. Are there any particular exotics or weapon archetypes you'd like to see buffed? Do you have any suggestions for trying to maintain power fantasy while improving the sandbox for endgame content? And lastly, be kind to your fellow guardians. It saddens me to see some of the negative or toxic behavior that's come out over the past couple of days. Show some love <3.
-
10 Replies1. The Whisper nerf puts the weapon at Legendary status. With Titan barricades and Lunafaction Rifts, White Nail is now useless and not worthy being called an Exotic perk. The biggest issue with this nerf is that it solves nothing. Whisper's infinite ammo was NOT what made it good; it was just icing on the cake; its raw damage output is its main stay. Whisper doesn't make other snipers irrelevant; Bungie did that months ago when they nerfed Box Breathing on everything. This is the common theme with these changes. [b]Nerfing the best Exotics will not make the garbage ones any better.[/b] 2. Overall, I agree with the Ace of Spades nerfs, except the damage one. Its ability to two-tap with One Eyed Mask is a One Eyed Mask problem, not an Ace of Spades one. This nerf doesn't even make sense to me. 3. And here we loop back to point 1. The Super regen Exotics aren't abused because they're the best options; they're abused because they're the only good ones. That's the whole issue right there; there is no decision-making process. After they're nerfed, they're still going to be the only good options. I do not foresee myself ever saying, "Oh man, I only get half of my Super back. I bet hovering in the air for a short time is a significantly better alternative!" No, that's not going to happen. Nerfing Skull of Dire Ahamkara is not going to make Wings of Sacred Dawn better. Nerfing Ursa Furiosa is not going to make Eternal Warrior better. Nerfing Orpheus Rigs is not going to make Mechaneer's Tricksleeves better. Those Exotics will continue to suck and never be used while the Super regens are still being abused, just slightly less effectively. This is why this set of changes is absolute garbage. Bungie isn't adding any diversity; they're keeping the meta options the same, but they're just less effective. It does nothing for the playerbase but piss everyone off. The reality is that no one is going to change their loadouts because the alternative options are still significantly worse than the recently nerfed ones.
-
1 ReplyYou want to know why the opinion is unpopular? its a bad opinion
-
1 ReplyYep its balance. It allows variety instead of same 2 weapons.
-
1 ReplyI'm gonna reserve judgment until we get all the notes other exotics might get buffs and become great we just dint Ave enough info yet
-
1 ReplyEdited by Clint: 5/19/2019 11:51:06 PMThe more I mull these changes over, the more I kind of understand them. Not necessarily like them, just understand them. In regards to whisper, Bungie and the community have all been here before with black hammer/spindle. Bungie [i]KNEW[/i] about the problem a sniper that can generate ammo would pose, and they still brought it back OG black hammer style. Why set yourself up to fail like this? They don't learn. For me, it's not the changes themselves that annoy me the most the more I mull them over. It's the precedent Bungie have now consistently set; anything good will undoubtedly be nerfed. No matter how hard you work for something, if it does it's job a little too well, it will be brought down a peg or two. Outbreak perfected [i]will[/i] be hit with a nerf, especially considering the catalyst will most likely make it even better.
-
2 RepliesI have to ask why did you make such a long post if you weren’t going to think about it at all?
-
I still don’t understand how people haven’t realized that Darci is better than wotw for insurrection prime if you know what ur doing.
-
I just wanna see scouts get some love
-
I agree that the nerfs somewhat make sense BUT BUT BUT this goes against bungie's own promises and what the playerbase actually wants. I think we would all rather see a mix of nerfs and buffs instead of just NERF after NERF. Also keep in mind that the abuse of Whisper, Skull, etc. is to offset the way Bungie has built the activites in the game. These OP exotics arent the problem they're a symptom of bad game design.
-
1 ReplyI wonder if this means people can get into groups without specific weapon requirements?
-
Yep, the armor nerfs were needed. I've already abandoned my skull and have been having a blast with my sentry buddy.
-
A necessary evil
-
4 RepliesI do agree. The nerfs make sense. HOWEVER, they should have announced a plethora of buffs along with these nerfs. This was only one half of a balance patch.
-
Edited by Chucky: 5/19/2019 11:48:22 PMI think they were justified and look forward to the way the game plays afterwards. I don't like the ideology of giving us items then nerfng them. Release the stuff in a position that's not game breaking in the first place. Buff useless exotics. Remove cores from infusion.
-
The manner of the nerfs expose the nature of the games design. The items are getting nerfed cos high use. The items get high use because they are effective & there is a major lack of alternatives. And then there is the upcoming raid which is obviously part of it all. Add to that, PC players with NF LH got a nerf they didn't need cos console, and console players got Ace nerfed cos PC. And this comes on top of a lot of feedback about the annual pass content & cores. And glitchy invitation, and shonky crucible. The lack of communication, the rng title issues, no new real estate or strikes this season.. It's all jus piled up with a big nerf on top. Personally, I think nerfing anything over raid issues is a major problem, given the small proportion of players who actually raid. Everyone in the class gets a debuff to facilitate 4 kids in the corner.. I love the game, but the cons are jus outweighing the pros right now. Also. Never use Whisper. Hate snipers.
-
Cool post OP. I kind of seen this coming to be honest. But the whole patch notes haven't been released yet so we'll see what happens as far as other items may be getting buffed. I know alot of people are upset, but I'm sure there are others who are coming up with new potential/alternative strats as a team. That's the silver lining in all of this. Reminds me of something back in D1. I remember how much of a crutch it was for people using Ghallerhorn for DPS. Sometimes if you didn't have it, people wouldn't even want you playing with them. I was fortunate enough through RNG to get one early on, but friends/clanmates of mine weren't. So it was good to learn how to play without using it and knowing you could get things done without it. I'm not letting bungie off of the hook at all, but I appreciate you not taking the easy stance on the issue at hand.
-
🤔Well said.🍻
-
They should know by now that they need to announce buffs alongside nerfs, otherwise everything burns down. I don’t LIKE any of the nerfs, but I understand why they were needed.
-
I agree
-
This type of balance is shit plain and simple, it's one major reason why D2 vanilla was so bad and they're just falling right back in it.
-
5 RepliesHas to write a whole story to try to justify the nerfs lol
-
the whisper nerf is completely uncalled for. if it regents ammo on 3 consecutive crits, wouldn't you think the easy solution would be to remove crit spots from certain encounters and go with adding mechanics that would provide a debuff for dps phases? I mean, pretty much every boss in this game just sits in one spot and has an exposed crit area which is the perfect scenario for whisper to dominate. this is where I lose faith in bungie as a developer, they don't know how to work around problems they introduced in their own game and now their only idea is to nerf everything. it took me 5 mins to think of that idea, you can't tell me that someone there a bungie can't do the same.
-
I don't need a wall of text to tell me sh#t. The truth is, justified or not, the nerfs have upset a large section of a dwindling community and that's not good for the game.
-
2 Replies[quote]Now for the actual changes themselves: First, what exactly is getting changed? 4 exotic weapons and 6 exotic armors (that's ~8.2% of total current exotics btw) are being adjusted in some way or another, with most of them receiving very targeted nerfs.[/quote] Proof you didn't even read the twab and why no one should listen to your attention grabbing post. That isnt the entire list, that's just the ones they announced now. go read it again.
-
2 RepliesThat's because we're dealing with entitled ppl (mostly kids or kid mentality) who don't want "their" things changed, and don't have the ability/don't want to adapt to different playstyles.. a little bit of laziness and some other part of not knowing how an online game works.. I think you summed it up pretty well albeit a little too long for my taste, but ok haha. All things considered, if those people that were advertising their departure, do leave, then it's better for all of us remaining, and if some reconsider, they'll just see that it wasn't that bad haha.
-
1 ReplyEdited by Ghostfire239: 5/18/2019 5:43:58 PMNightstalker literally depends on Orpheus. It’s the only reason why people use it in PvE. Nightstalkers are basically gonna be useless after the nerf. Also Whisper isn’t the end all be all of DPS. There are weapons that can complete with it. DARCI, 1K voices, Legend of Acrius. The issue comes down to how the handle most bosses. Now Whisper is basically Black Spindle again but in the heavy slot. No one used Black Spindle, why they use it now? Especially when DARC + Luna well of rally barricade (which are always used in DPS phases anyway) can do it’s job better and do more damage. These nerfs aren’t going to make people use things like Graviton Forfeit or Fighting lion more. Nerfing the few fun exotics in the game doesn’t make the game better. Can’t wait for Bungie to start nerfing the next best stuff. Who plays this game for fun anyway? The majority of Players CLEARLY play this game because they’re looking to scratch that challenge itch.