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7/25/2017 8:38:01 PM
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The Design Philosophy of Destiny 2, and who this game is really for....

[b]"Destiny 2 is a convergence of veteran players, just like you, and new players into our Universe" -Luke Smith, Game Director, at the D2 reveal.[/b] These were the first words spoken by Luke Smith, and the first sign of bad things to come for actual Destiny players. Followed shortly thereafter by [b]"....if you are a competitive player, we've re-thought the Crucible from first principles, we're moving ALL activities in PVP to 4v4, we've rebuilt the sandbox in a bunch of ways, to 'smaller team formats'. We've done this because we want to create a sense of mastery. In order to master anything, you need to be able to understand it."[/b] Feeling insulted yet? Luke Smith didn't think that we understood the principles behind Destiny 1's PvP and that making the maps smaller, with less players and forcing weak primary weapons into our hands somehow made it "easier to understand". Never mind that there were ZERO tutorials in Destiny1 to explain ANYTHING from weapon perks to Crucible strategy to effective counters... we didn't understand it, apparently, even though most of us figured this stuff out without those tutorials. Enter Steve Cotton, the World Lead Designer: [b]".... i have 2 kids, and just like you guys, they play Destiny a lot.... (he goes on to talk about how 1 kid likes lone wolf play and patrolling the wilds, the other likes crucible and raiding with a clan).... The point is, there's a lot to do in Destiny and its this variety that can appeal to all of us", right? in any type of mood that we're in. [/b] Oh boy.... bad sign? Stay with me here.... Cotton goes on after mentioning a few activities: [b]And then there is the Crucible... we've made some big changes.... we're building it for "PvP Players". Its now 4v4 across all game modes (very sparse applause... people seem shell shocked hearing this in the crowd).[/b] He mentions HUD changes that inform you of certain aspects of enemy readiness... then: [b]... to make it an experience thats easy to get into, but its hard to master.[/b] LOL? Team shooting as a mastery technique? LOL again. He waits for applause, people don't know that this is time to applause. Its awkward. [b]So we've got new maps, new modes and we believe this is the best PvP offering that Destiny has ever seen.[/b] After playing this Beta, most of us know that its completely false. He goes on to talk about some actual promising things such as the new activities and the new worlds we will have to explore. Enter M.E Chung, Social lead: after telling us about the positives of the community and how the game has helped us make connections with people across the world, which in my opinion IS the best of what D1 offered, although it was a challenge to break through that barrier in the early goings and find a group to raid with due the lack of in game matchmaking, she goes on to talk about their solutions to that: They have half-fixed that with Guided games, a point that i am neutral to. Then she announces "shared rewards for being in a clan"-----> participation awards for not even having to participate. So your time spent in the game rewards the people that don't have to participate..... wow. I can't even imagine how this is going to go down, as we know that some people don't put the time in to earn rewards. It gives incentives to be in a clan, but not actually participate. Not sure yet if this all that bad, but.... Who is this design for? We're getting there..... Mark Noseworthy then comes on to bridge the gap between Bungie and Activision and introduces the Activision CEO Eric Hirshberg: he pumps up Bungie, then pumps up Sony, ignores xbox (wtf?) and mentions the new PC platform for the game. He intros the Blizzard CEO and he explains the way D2 will be delivered to to PC players..... then the hand-picked crowd of streamers and Youtubers rolls over to go play the Beta of D2. The same build that we just played in the beta, that NONE of them properly assessed before the beta dropped this past week. Still trying to figure out where i am going with this? Sorry, but there's more to address first. Now onto Deej... our impenetrable source of sweaty upper-lip-service in an E3 interview with Rooster Teeth: Interviwer asks "what was the decision like to move to 4v4?". [b]Deej: "The crucible has always been a pretty chaotic environment with these 6v6 engagements.... we wanted to create a stronger sense of discipline and focus so that its a more WATCHABLE experience. Its something that you can follow as a spectator or learn from as a combatent..... and at the end of a match, even if you got your ass kicked, you are gonna know exactly how that went down.[/b] Really? Is this why the after report now doesn't tell you how many kills you've had, but instead lumps kills and assists together as "defeated"? Oh and that "watchable" bit? That's code word for we're trying super hard to make this an Esport. Deej goes on [b]"... not to say that we want to make it LESS FUN, but we wanted to make it fun in a way that is learnable."[/b] Holy mother of god.... did i hear that right? yup. Enter Laars Baaken in IGN video revealing Control and its changes: while explaining the new Control mechanics [b]....Everything in Destiny 2 has been SIMPLIFIED..... [/b] Really? A simple game has been made more simplified? What the literal fvkc? The interviewer asks a little later "....you had to make sacrifices for smaller team sizes, how do you make those decisions?" [b]Baaken resonds: "it comes down to, not only making it more competitve, but making it more learnable and understandable and team size definately came out of that.... it consiladtes the space down and makes it more understandable for you as a player."[/b] So... where am i going with all of this? If you are wondering why The Darkness has been replaced with Gary, or Control Zones no longer need to be neutralized, or you have 2 primaries in your loadout or time-to-kill has been so drastically increased, or why the subclasses all feel pretty similar and weakened, or many of the other baffling design choices that these developers have made.... go thorough all of these videos, even the ones that i don't mention, and pick out the buzzwords like "ACCESSIBLE" and you will soon realize that all of this stuff is done not with the actual Destiny player in mind.... its done FOR KIDS. Its done for CASUALS. Its done for critics who reviewed the game poorly, its done for that sweet sweet loot.... but not the random god roll type of loot, but for the cold hard cash that Bungievision hopes to make off of this watered down, SIMPLIFIED, easily learn-able dud of a sequel. This game isn't made for Guardians... its made for kids. Its written all over the wall and in between the cracks of their logic. My only solution that i can offer is that THEY DELAY THIS GAME FOR NO LESS THAN 6 MONTHS to redesign the many factors that are alienating the core playerbase, cause its obvious that the PHILOSOPHY isn't a more focused plan, but a plan to try to appeal to all types of gamers, just not the ones that kept the 3 year Beta afloat with constant play and constant feedback. TLDR: When you try to make a game for everyone, you end up making it for NO ONE. One more thought: If you had no intention of shipping the game to play like this, then why did you give us a beta with outdated tuning? I for one, do not buy the answer in the TWAB of "yeah we were gonna change it anyway so, thanks for your feedback but we are ahead of you." Nah bro.... some simple minded folks might be able to accept that answer, but anyone with a little bit of awareness can tell that you are in full force damage control, and doing a terrible job of it. For me.... a dude who put in a stupid amount of hours to D1, this new game is NO BUY, because your Beta reinforced all the things i saw coming from a mile away. The freaking Ghost is now the JAR JAR BINKS of the destiny universe. Have you no shame?
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#feedback

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  • Hard not to agree with all of what you penned.

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  • Truly a visionary. Why didn't we listen...

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  • Bump

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  • Rip

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  • Bump

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  • Yes omg

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  • Bump

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  • Bump

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  • Bump

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  • Bump.

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  • I'm done playing this MMO. Don't feel like paying $170 just to play the damn game.

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  • [quote]its done FOR KIDS. Its done for CASUALS[/quote] Well, I consider myself a casual player, regardless of the many hours I have sunk into PvP. If they made their decisions on this Beta trying to cater to me............it failed on a huge scale. I disliked almost everything about it. In PvP, there wasn't a single thing I came away with that excited me. Not one thing!!

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  • Edited by John: 7/27/2017 7:39:54 AM
    12
    I have 170 days 8 hours and 14 minutes played in D1, about half of that is in Crucible. I have already canceled my preorder after playing the beta. Especially to Luke Smith: You won't have me throwing money at the screen anymore.

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    • Sorry man, but the investors pulling the strings at Activision do not care. There are fronts put up to make you think they care, but look at their actions. Invested gamers are not going to make pockets fatter when that stock market exchange bell rings.

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    • My god this is incredibly accurate and exactly how I feel. Well written

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    • Couldn't agree with you more here. I know, your shocked right? LOL But really, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who saw that the cherrypicked crowd during the reveal did not seem all that into all the changes that were coming. Go back and compare/contrast the reveal footage in the first link provided with the reveal for Warframes Plains of Eidolon which was revealed at Tennocon 2017. You can hear REAL enthusiasm from the Warframe crowd, whereas the crowd at the reveal sounds quite awkward when it comes to moments of applause - and they do not sound all that into it. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0xm2FUjHcs[/url] D2 reveal [url] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRgLfsy2n0w[/url] Tennocon 2017 - Plains of Eidolon During the Tennocon reveal, you can literally hear people shouting and screaming and going "HOLY #@$@#! No WAY! NO WAY!" D2 reveal was bereft of all such reactions. I also don't buy that the beta was an old build and that they had to release THAT particular version of the game for the public to play. I took the excuse apart in a sub-post to my own D2 review, and I'll cut/paste it here below. I'll just wrap this post up by saying that D2 is so far and away from the Game that I came to love that I no longer recognize it as a fun, playable game. Unfortunately, too much of what I have loved was removed from the game, and that is a big issue for those who were here from the beginning of D1. Now my old beta rebuttal: [quote]I'm going to make this a follow up post for all those who are saying "your top concerns will be addressed in the final game." That may very well be true, but I believe you are making an assumption and just taking bungie's word for it - and Bungie may have just issued the statement in order to try to sooth the heat that they're taking right now. First, lets look at their excuse: The PVE game tuning has changed pretty significantly since the Beta build was deployed. The nature of a Beta of this scale requires that it’s based off a build of the game that is now months old. So, in many cases, your feedback is helping us validate changes that were previously made based on internal feedback and playtesting. For example, we too felt that ammo (especially power ammo) was too scarce in PvE. In addition to retuning the drop rates, we built a system that guarantees power ammo drops for you and your Fireteam from certain enemies, giving power weapons a more reliable and predictable role in your arsenal. Other areas where we’ve made significant tuning changes include grenade effectiveness in PvE, Boss vitality, and weapon damage against non-player combatants. I'm going to take this excuse point by point: 1. What can you learn by product testing an obsolete version of the game? It's like Apple product-testing the Iphone 4S right now when they offer several superior products. It doesn't make sense. The comparative value is so low that it literally makes no sense to product test an obsolete version of the game when a superior version is presumably available. 2. IF a superior version was available, then wouldn't it make sense to product-test THAT version so that if there is any additional fine-tuning they need to do, they can be well prepared to issue a hotfix patch before launch so that you deliver a far superior, more refined product? I think that makes complete sense - and that is why most companies don't product test OLD, OBSOLETE versions of their products. IMO, this excuse just doesn't fly. 3. Even if they didn't want to use the final tunes for the release of the game, they presumably had the tunes from the reveal available, and the game was far better received during the reveal. Even players who are unhappy with the settings now, players like RWG and Lost Sols, reported that the beta was NOT reflective of their experience with the reveal. They could have easily used those settings for the beta, and the beta may have been more well received. 4. They said themselves that they released the beta with poor tuning for the purpose of confirming their own thoughts on the matter, but this is just hogwash. Why purposely release a bad product for the purposes of confirming that it is bad? That doesn't make sense, especially when Bungie knew from the outset prior to the beta that there were a LOT of skeptics regarding many of the changes they're making to the game. Why give MORE fuel to add to the fire so close to launch, especially when that fuel is likely to increase negative feedback and reduce overall sales? After all, Bungie is in the business to sell videogames, so putting a bad product out there doesn't even make logical sense. 5. This is a beta, but it is NOT JUST a beta. Given all the skeptics out there, Bungie knows that this beta will be a crucial point for the success or failure of D2. They used it as a marketing tool to try to boost pre-orders, and they know that the beta period is a time when they should be cementing pre-orders, winning over skeptics, and increasing pre-launch sales. So it makes absolutely NO business sense to NOT put your best foot forward in an attempt to do so. After all, Bungie is a business, and we can expect that a business would act in its own best interest to further its own goals (sell more games). Given all of these arguments, and Bungie's poor reputation for being honest and transparent, the fact that they came out and said "all these issues will be fixed in the final release" tends to fall on deaf ears. I don't think Bungie is stupid enough to purposely release a bad version of the game for the beta when they know it is a crucial moment for the game. I think it is FAR more likely that Bungie saw this tuning and did not see any problems with it. I do think they will try certain bandaids to try to make the game more palatable, but I don't think they will be anything but quick-fix temporary solutions. There is only so much they can do since they won't tune PVE separately from PVP. So while they can decrease ability recharge times, they can't decrease it too much because not having access to abilities is a pillar of their PVP-first approach. This is ALSO the reason why armor can only do so much to impact the ability regen times. Ammo drops? They can always increase those, but it doesn't address the issue that PVE players just plain don't like whittling away at strong bosses with weak weapons. There's nothing engaging or exciting about it, and that kind of play DECREASES rather than INCREASES replayability. The TL;DR- I don't buy that Bungie was testing an old, obsolete product. I think it FAR more likely that they simply don't respect PVE players - as has been their pattern of behavior over the last 3 years. I don't trust them at all to implement a solution that does anything more than the bare minimum to shut PVE players up, but I don't believe they will actually give us anything to make us happy. THAT kind of effort will be reserve for the PVP crowd.[/quote]

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      • Put this on Reddit. I see a lot more responses from people in Bungie there than I ever have here. I really doubt they pay much attention to these forums anymore. There's too many salt posts to weed through to find stuff like this that I'm sure they give up and just tell people they are always listening.

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      • You are So on the money 💵! to bad people will try and defend bungie like hero's.

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      • Started a new topic: Goodbye Guardians and thank you(29 Replies))

      • Dead on. However the bungie tools wouldn't listen. They would just label you a [i]whiner[/i] and [i]complainer[/i]

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      • Its aimed at brain dead man kids and teenagers who will repeat shit on a loop like zombies chasing their rng digital prize addictions haha

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        • Accurate

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        • This is an excellent post and I really hope Bungie reads this and fixes the game. But if they don't, I think someone will eventually step in and make a game to satisfy all of Bungie's lost customers. Hang in there and keep your chin up. Thanks for the post.

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        • I agree totally Bump

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        • They won't listen, no amount of threads or ranting is going to change that. Once bungie makes a decision they shut out everything around them. Instead of asking us what we want bungie prefers to make our decisions for us. This is the way it's always been and it's never going to change.

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          • Almost 6,400 hours played here on D1...but again, Bungie doesn't care what the veteran players have to say. I didn't think about the "kid" aspect of all this dumbing down of D2 but now that I think about I don't play with kids because they can't understand simple mechanics. Stands to reason Bungie would start handing out participation trophies to little Johnny son-of-a-b**ch and take away everything that made D1 fun in the first place.

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