1) you can have someone make your relic holder invis, or have him not jump into ogre firing lanes, you can also Agro ogres 2) hunters can practice there jumps, find a balance between armour and agility 3) the bombs are really easy to detonate, in fact if you drop ogres close enough together one person can detonate two bombs. 4) yes they are red bar but they start far enough out and rush out of firing lanes from the platforms, they take more than one headshot to down. You run the risk of running out of secondary if you need to snipe the ogre too I believe someone mentioned lower DPS teams should use no knight and that makes sense. Below 310 you are going to struggle downing your ogre and then potentially be low on ammo or late taking out your knight. The floaters can't be in four places at once.

This is why playing kf with randoms is awful. One hates the no knight strategy, another loves it. Every person has his or hers preference. Why does it matter so much how you do it? As long you get the job done and get your rewards, that's what should matter. I don't care, as long oryx is dead in the end. And about that jump part, if hunters would actually put their agility up, it would save your team a few wipes. The Nightstalker class can give you the same amount of armor as agility. Please, use it, [b]definitely[/b] at the first jump puzzle (ships). Waiting 20 minutes for all the hunters to get across is just ridiculous.

True. I prefer killing knights. Unfortunately, lfg is nothing but no knight method.

[quote]2. You do not have to stand on the daughters' platforms. Again, the ogres come into play here. Someone always (usually hunters) cannot make the jump from the four platforms to the daughters platform and usually gets killed by the ogres or the ship because they try to go up the middle. Killing ogres allows everyone to go middle like in normal mode. [/quote] Every class has the ability to make the jump from the 4 platforms. I've never seen anyone fail to make that jump.

I do relic on a hunter, Titan and warlock and not once have I died from an ogre

I've completed this both ways and if someone said no night strat I humor him and ask why. They usually say it's easier. I then ask, for who? They say for the guys on the platforms.. When did this become a 2 to 3 man raid exactly?

I liked no knight strat when we were lower light levels and bad a hard time taking down ogres. But now that I'm in the 314-15 range I find the strat useless and leading to many pointless deaths. Spent hours with a group last night who wouldn't step away from no knights strat. Few guys got tired and said 1 more run and I had em do normal strat. Went smoother then any other run and led to an easy kill. TLDR: No knights=better for low light Normal better for people 311+

If you can't do no knight strategy your relic runner is shit and/or people don't know how to jump. If you can't do it w/ knights. People can't shoot for shit and/or are too low light level to do enough dps. Both strategies work fine. As a relic runner it's more work doing no knight strat but still very manageable. Either strategy works fine. But both strategies show where weaknesses are in fireteams. And most would rather blame the strategy than their shortcomings.

I am typically the relic runner, because I am a Titan and I Titan skate for days. My team I found on LFG used the no knight strat. I was really too proficient with the no knight. But they told me what to do so I just rolled with it because I am pretty flexible when it comes to strategies. I die my first run by ogres because I wasn't expecting them. Oh well we wipe and try again. I adapt and we get the run started. We do it in five rotations because one guy died and missed one. We finish the run in under 15 minutes easy. We run it again because they had a checkpoint. We do it again, first run, in under 12 minutes again. The strat doesn't matter. All that matters is that the team communicates and help each other out. There can not be any lone wolf shit during oryx at all. One weak link ruins the chain.

Ok, as someone who has ran both strategies, and personally found the no knight strategy easier, let's address your points. 1. I have done the no knight strategy in all roles and haven't found this to be an issue. This depends on your runner knowing where to go, and your two ogre weakening people getting aggro. When they have aggro the ogres always go to the same place, and once the runner learns where to go, they can keep themselves safe and get the brand every time without getting slammed first. 2. Just as you can't fathom what's so hard about sniping a red bar knight, I never understand what's so hard about jumping from a lower platform to a daughter platform. I've made the jump first time everytime on every class. It isn't hard, and it's incredibly safe. 3. In theory this is true, but I've usually had more trouble getting them all detonated simultaneously in the normal strategy. I think this is because people tend to run immediately after a stagger in the normal strategy, whereas in the no knight strategy everyone takes the time to kill ogres and jumps which is very effective coordination. You also have the situation where one person sets off two bombs because they almost always overlap. Can't get much more synchronized than that. 4. You know for someone demanding no salt you, you seem pretty salty. How is it you take for granted that people can quickly snipe a red bar knight, but then assume those same people can't make a simple jump? But ok fair enough. Not too hard to hit a knight, but mistakes happen and you only need to screw up once. I'll also point out that while they spawn in a great place to get immediately sniper in the Oryx spawn half of the room, they spawn in am awful place in the entrance half. Maybe only takes a second longer to find them once you know where to look, but that is a second where you're exposed to adds, particularly acolyte death eyes. This is the most dangerous part of the normal strategy to me. That and right after the stagger if people don't take time to kill adds before going for their bombs. You actually missed a con. Even if they can avoid the ogres, the relic runner has a much tougher job getting from the vessel to a platform than from the vessel to the middle. This won't matter to a good runner with practice, but it should be mentioned. Now let's talk about the Pros. 1. You avoid completely the knights AND the adds by leaving the ogres alive. I'd say most deaths in the normal strategy come from the adds either when shooting knights, running to the middle, or when detonating bombs. Not something you have to worry about with the no knight strategy. Assuming you can make a very easy jump it's just so much safer to gather on a daughter platform in the no knight strategy, and the adds are just never a concern. 2. In my experience, the no knight strategy is more forgiving. Since the ogres only need to be weakened, you can make do with only one person up top if needed so a random death to stupid (can happen in any strategy) isn't nearly as crippling. Not preferred of course, but the strategy is much more viable a man down. 3. A minor consideration, but after you grab the brand, you don't need to worry about the vessel at all. It's just one less thing to worry about. 4. Yes indeed it is easier to do when you have underlight people or people who don't snipe as well. 1 and 3 are big btw. Ultimately I think this strategy caught on for the same reason the one orb strategy caught on for golgoroth: fewer moving parts. The KISS principle is always a good one and the no knight strategy has the fewest things to worry about and so for a lot of people is the simplest. However, I know that not everyone finds the same things simple. For some people it's much simpler to kill the ogres kill the knights, run to the middle and kill the vessel, kill the adds before going to get the bombs. Those people will prefer the normal strategy and I totally get that. Myself, I prefer no knight, but I'm fine with either and will always do what the group finds easiest. Edit: one other con I've found to normal strategy is that fourth knight. People act like if he's missed you can get him when he goes through the middle but I swear this never works out. Easily solved by having your floaters get the kill before going down to the middle.