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Edited by Skyrender6: 8/20/2016 2:44:07 PM
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How to properly teach raiding.

There have been too many instances where I have joined raid groups where other fireteam members have railed on players who weren't 100% familiar with the mechanics of any given fight, and I wanted to submit this post to share with you all some ways that we can make raiding a better experience for all players involved regardless of skill level. I want you all to know that you can invite a novice guardian to a raid and still beat it easily as long as you properly teach him or her. It's important to understand that, however well intentioned you may be when dealing with inexperienced players, you may not be aware that your instructions can be vague, misleading, or inappropriate for the player you are trying to teach. So here are my own tips: [b]1. Teach to the lore.[/b] These raids have some wacky mechanics to be sure. But by explaining what the mechanics have to do with the lore of the game, you are framing a proper context and giving a purpose to the fight. Always explain the objective first (for example: "we have to help the taken guardian find his or her way back to our dimension by creating a pathway to the deathsinger 's brand") so that the fight feels less gimmicky and, in turn, more sensible. [b]2. Understand that there are strategies within strategies--do not overlook any nuance.[/b] It is easy to overlook a small step in raiding that can mean the difference between a kill and a wipe because we don't properly assess what is going wrong. There are many nuanced strategies in each raid that can make things a lot easier for all members of a team, and if you are teaching how to raid you need to be familiar with at least most of them. For example, having two hunters on the first and third plates during the Oryx fight will improve performance because they can both tether the middle lane after killing their ogres, trapping the light eater knights and instantly and solving the problem of keeping the Knights away from the bombs. Another example would be the first gaze holder during the Golgoroth fight. He or she can use a machine gun to shoot the first bubble down, switch to primary, and take the ogres gaze, making the job much easier for the rest of the team. [b]3. Give a guided tour of all routes for each player before the fight begins.[/b] Don't just tell players where to go, show them where to go. And don't just show them, show them how by literally having them run beside you as you demonstrate movement routes throughout a fight. Show them what to shoot and what not to shoot, and when. Tell them, for instance, what they are and are not responsible for. I can't stress that last part enough, because many players die due to burdening themselves with too many unnecessary tasks. A plate holder doesn't need to shoot acolytes--he or she only needs to kill the ogre, and then kill their knight. A aura holder doesn't need to shoot the Warpriest, only the acolytes in 7 to 9 second intervals. Any teacher who properly addresses this in a fight will find that any novice player can hold their own. [b]4. Create a communication code.[/b] You should establish from the very beginning what everyone should say, and when. It's a given that communication is important, but too much talking over the mic will almost always cause a wipe. Be sure that you establish what everyone should say and when. Keeping it simple, like saying "runner up", "1 up", "2 up", "3 up", "I have the orb", "knight 4 down", "vessel down", "Oryx chest", "Oryx slamming", "run to bombs", "detonate in 3, 2, 1" will make the fight a lot easier. And notice that what I just wrote is basically the entirety of a whole round against Oryx. You literally do not have to say more than 30 words to defeat Oryx on hard mode! Think of it another way--which is the better statement: "I'm taken, someone needs to take my plate", or "Plate 3 taken, middle replace plate 3"? The second line keeps confusion to a minimum and will save you a lot of time and effort. Bad communication is just as bad as no communication, remember that! [b]5. If you are imposing weapon and high light requirements, you're already doing it wrong.[/b] Let me be clear: you do NOT need a Touch of Malice to beat Oryx. You never needed a Gjallarhorn to beat Crota. You don't need a Black Spindle to finish Golgoroth. And you DEFINITELY do not need 335 light to finish a raid. Yes, these things make the fight easier. But a well taught team will ALWAYS perform just as well if not better than a team with maxed gear and specs. It's time to let that go. If you are the expert raider that you think you are, then you need to stop ignoring players who have the potential to be good raiders but can't because they don't have a weapon that you like! Remember, all of us had to beat the raid at least once without the Touch of Malice, right? So trust in the potential of a player who is willing to learn! [b]6. Be aware of the difference between an inexperienced player and a "noob".[/b] Inexperienced players are those who are willing to learn, while "noobs" are immature, hardheaded players who do not listen to what is being taught to them. Be sure that, when creating a team of novice guardians, that you want players that are willing to follow orders and trust in their leader. When you have a team of mature guardians, you will know that the fight can be won, regardless of how much experience they have. [b]7. Be kind![/b] It's amazing to me how often kindness is an overlooked quality among many guardians. This is exactly why I prefer to play with newer players over seasoned ones, because seasoned players are too often jaded by their experiences and less willing to be patient and kind to others. If a new player fails at his or her job, be nice about it! Refer to my second step--assess and reteach, and do it nicely! When you are mean to a guardian you are making that guardian worry not only about the fight, but about being insulted by you, which will only make his or her performance worse. I have been in many teams of "seasoned" players who failed, and I have been in many teams of "novice" players who have succeeded, all for this very reason! So that's it for me, for now at least. I just felt that this is important because I feel terrible whenever I join teams where people blame others for failing. There's already a lot of toxicity in Destiny, so help it be a better game by being a better guardian for yourself and others! -Skyrender6 POST EDIT: The positive response to this discussion really shows that we've got a great community here, even if it doesn't always show. Lord knows that I've been impatient, but it's never too late to rethink what your role is in a game like this and to pay kindness forward. Because at the end of the day, you're playing with five other human beings at the other end of that connection. And they may be strangers to you, but so are you to them! Thank you all for your honest responses, and that includes those who disagree with my points as well, because your honesty is key in understanding why the conflict exists in the first place. Bungie, we need to talk more about this because I just know that your game will be an even greater success if you take an active role in teaching raid etiquette and inclusionary tactics!
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  • I sherpad a group today, nobody in the group has done hard mode and only half have completed normal. we only made it to sisters but god damn was it fun to do, helping them finish tomorrow and it's gonna be hilarious and fun again

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  • Nice to see some positivity.

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  • nice thread. obvs a year 1 guardian :)

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  • Great post. Good to see people like you still exist in the community

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  • Lol raids are dead until rise of iron

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  • Edited by Bob: 8/20/2016 4:31:57 AM
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    people that hate on other people for their group requirements are the problem tbh. "oh man this completely random guy that I don't know doesn't want low light levels in his group, and I can't make my own group or anything". if you don't have ToM yet, there are 2 reasons you are either first time running the raid, which is fine. or you just are too lazy to do the quest. which I don't understand. you are hurting only the other people by not performing your best

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    • Edited by Sister of Shapes: 8/19/2016 8:14:53 PM
      We understand but here is how I roll. Team of pros for my loot haul, then I'll do a separate raid for the noobs. [spoiler]We just want it done... not explained[/spoiler] [spoiler]but we still help noobs on noob runs were our goal is to help raid virgins[/spoiler]

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      • Need 335 Bubble Titan for Oryx and his Daughters. Must have no life and still have the will to play even 3 months before the next expansion comes out. Have both Black Spindle and Touch of Malice equipped at the same time because otherwise you are not following the code of top tier Destiny "pros" Also you have to have this rare and obscure emblem you can only get once from some time locked mission that requires you to pull off 50 360 no scopes on Taken Captains white drinking beer to destroy your liver

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        • Edited by JHarv: 8/20/2016 1:08:44 AM
          The one reason I really like running with 335 is you know you're getting an experienced player. You don't need Touch of Malice for Oryx. But you know what I like? Playing with people who are serious. I'm the kind of person who will ALWAYS do what I need to to perform my best. If there's a gun to farm for, I'll do it. If there's a subspec setup to use, Im going to do it. It almost sounds like you're trying to rationalize bringing players who want to do the minimum along. I know you don't NEED Malice for Oryx, but wouldn't you rather players be serious enough to get it? TTK has only been out for a fcking year now. It's not elitism. We don't know each other, I don't know how skilled you are. So the next best thing is to take the light level, weapons, and experience. If you have problems with how other people run their groups, run your own with your own rules. I have never had a problem with any restrictions. You know why? Because I haven't put any of the restrictions you mentioned on myself. I'm not a marginal player. I'm up there with the best of them. Not because I'm more skilled, but because of how I prepare. I run all the toughest things in raids. Relics, gazes, auras, etc. Every time I move around on patrols or strikes, I practice my jumping, my snapshot sniping, my positioning. I play the crucible to fine tune my reaction time and ability to think on the fly. I would highly encourage more people to fight to put themselves in a position to succeed, rather than have everyone else lower their bar. Go farm for swords, spindles, malice, and upgrade them. Play banner for 335 gear. Raid the challenge mode 3 times per week. Get the light level, get the guns, become a better player, and you will never have problems leading groups to victory or being kicked due to lack of preparation. And that's all it is. Preparation.

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          • Can some one carry me?

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          • Great guide bro. Just helped a few guys through normal mode. It was their first King's Fall completion. I'd really like to help some folks through Hard Mode. That is my new challenge before RoI drops.

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          • Bump

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          • 1
            Doing trials carries come stop by stream https://www.twitch.tv/crotasendraidd

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          • I'm a player who's never done a raid because most of the people asking want someone with 330+ light or someone that "actually knows what they're doing." it's hard to find someone to raid with because of my light level which isn't even bad (321) and sometimes simply because I'm 15.

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            • Will you be a friend? I need one like you!

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            • Wish there were more Guardians like you.

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            • Beat post ive seen in months

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            • Thank you, guardian, for a thorough, well written, experienced and genuinely helpful post. We really need more guardians with light like yours. I still remember the days of fire team leaders simultaneously complaining about guardians not knowing how to run relic while talking about not wanting to teach the method...

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            • Ive carried before the update to COE we never needed anything I got to 335 before the update, these people who ask for 335 with Tom and spindle only know how to raid others who are the same me and my pal have run countless people through (I get kicked by the Mrs most of the time) they're always helpful. I can tell the difference between who wants to learn and someone who wants Tom. I do ask for 330 but that's to finish quickly as most people above 225 have finished the raid but you do have the odd every now and then, the other night we carried a few through who had never touched the raid, never new the idea to it. Me, my pal and another carried these though on hard first time, had to explain the Knights several times but we got there in the end.

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            • I just have a problem when my teammates don't have a brain. I mean some people can't count to 4 or jump in a circle. It really is scary

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            • [quote]6. Be aware of the difference between an inexperienced player and a "noob".[/quote] But there's also the term "newb" that exists..Which means you're just a newbie. You're not going to be able to tell which term is being used just by listening. :\

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              • What about groups that reject warlocks from their raid group? How do I deal with that? I hope there is a place for warlocks in the next raid because I can only get in on raids in my titan.

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                • Nice job.

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                • U talk so much pls come and guide us 5 by 5 lol....no action = empty .dude

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                • I'm just going to put it out there... Point 1,is kinda irrelevant in my opinion. Not everyone is interested in hearing about the dripfed lore,of the game.

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                • It's not a matter of teaching people it's that it usually takes an hour to teach someone who doesn't know the raid how to do it or sometimes they won't listen at all

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