I don't understand all the requests for VoG to stay relevant. Isn't the pattern kind of grind Raid A until your eyes bleed and you never want to see it again until you're high enough level to solo it, then raid B releases and you grind it until you want to puke until you die, and the cycle rinses and repeats ad infinitum? I haven't even owned the game for its full life span and I'm already pretty sick of VoG...

To OP and reddit user seraph 1337, I have been an off and on gamer for most of my life. I have seen and witnessed a lot of things, but the fundamental problem with this argument is one based on understanding one's principles and overall flow progression, but have missed out on the innovation being explained and touted with this decision. You say the lesson here is we can't trust Bungie. What exactly is Bungie to you? To me, it is a collection of individuals working in a company setting to provide content for a given price to users and gamers alike who wish to immerse themselves in it. This understanding is not the point however. As a collective majority, I have to take a look into the various negative and positive messages coming from this and analyze them like I know how to. I do not expect my opinion or elaborations to be what you will like as I've never tried to ever be appealing to people. Historically speaking, the human race has never had a solid grasp of anything it does. From the early [url=http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/gabr0000.htm]pages of history regarding warfare and its evolution[/url] to the current online and digital age. Many of you will read that and go, what are you talking about? Because you don't yet realize the point I am making: topics. Analysis's.Virtues. All things and/or items of a system checklist which feed from one principle into another and forms a system of control and freedom. Do not get hung up on the heavy handed words there and please don't put me on a pedestal for them. Just act like you've heard them before. Think like that means something and now take Destiny, a video game, meant for entertainment but one where you are not completely entertained with, and apply that knowledge. This is the basis not of a Bachelors in college, but borderline a Masters in understanding the humanities and its evolution to understand the human condition in a non-medical science way but, like all things truthfully speaking, are linked together based on the principles you have already identified. This is the basis of understanding Destiny and its choices. This is the basis of understanding and ultimately accepting that while you want to control your life and its choices of entertainment you are causing irreparable harm to those who have taken it one step further. To understand and accept more then you have. This has been a problem for recent generation people. In the United States alone, we are segregating gamers and people by not respecting the principles of choice. This particular situation has many I can write about, but the developers choice to take a peak into why they took their jobs in the first place and contributions they make on a daily and hourly basis is a process I am familiar with. People see the commentary of a developer and think they know them. They are your buddy. It's nice to be online and have that freedom. But maybe you are like me and see things as they lay saying things like you can't trust a developer. Here's my devils advocate response to you: As a fellow user, I feel like I could not trust you in any respectable nature now. Cheap words on the screen to indicate that you are a glass half empty person not because of habitual choices but because you made this post. How dare you. How dare you be blah blah blah, yack yack yack. Must be nice reading it on a screen and not hearing it in real life because if you care too much, the internet will eat you alive. As a former Wow player, I know this to be the truth of younger minded individuals on the internet. Must be nice not having the responsibilities of a developers system of control thrust upon you so you can progress higher and see the positive of the situation enough to make a much more convincing post then this. Must be that glass half full sub conscious of yours balancing out just why you are so entertained by Destiny that you made the post. If you think I'm probing you for information, don't. This is not meant to put me on a pedestal or bring you to challenge yourself. This is simply a post made by a concerned user who thinks the choices of the selective few for online communities has found footing not based on logical thought processes but because they feel entitled to not have to do more to gain more. If they argue they don't gain enough, that 20 points is too little, then my response is, "What is the mathematical algorithm which denotes the impact difference between a 280 and 300 pulse rifle? A shotgun? How about we add legendaries versus exotics? Are their possibly any hidden modifiers on them that deej said before the game released in an interview? Shotgun headshot hidden modifier if you never heard about that." Even if an answer is given, they have already lost a key part of the argument. Intelligence is not customary to those who have degrees or work on these sorts of things. Intelligence is not denoted by being on online forums or by voicing ones concerns. Intelligence is taking what you know, applying like you have, and giving it meaning with solutions, equations, questions of a neutral basis, and/or any number of other ways to interpret both your and my understandings of this situation. In the end, there is no answer to who is correct besides trusting in the systemic principles which got us this far. If the effort is not worth the drive later on and you find yourself someplace other then destiny for entertainment then you find yourself outside of that. I've seen more people leave gaming forever because they finally realized they couldn't enjoy things fully. They clung and posted and talked with others, but in the end, the developers went a different path they didn't agree with. Most people I've encountered take that as an insult or misguided principles and the same answer is always given by me: You are a conditioned response based on what you want. If you prioritize something, it will be given the most time and effort you want to give on it. If you choose to enjoy that priority however, you will never give up any effort. Destiny is a video game. Enjoy it. Enjoy anything about it. Don't get caught up in the haters messages and wishes. Just say, "Hey, today, I've got a chance to enjoy this. I don't need anything else. I just need to enjoy this." You'll very quickly find this is not about making you feel happy inside. It is about making it not a priority in any sense of the word. Then, and only then, will you truly enjoy every game you play.

I don't understand why they can't just add a level 32 version of VoG with 32 light on it. That way both raids are viable.

I think the problem is simply that we couldn't spend enough time with our maxed out exotic/raid weapons before new weapons supersede them. What most people were asking for was more content. I think there would have been less complaints if Bungie had simply made this DLC a content update i.e. all the new raid, story missions, gear, crucible maps, new ways of earning guns etc but kept the light level and weapon damage/attack ratings the same as what we have now. Then in the house of wolves DLC, they could have raised the light level and the weapon damage/attack ratings. In my opinion, I think this would have caused lot less friction.

This post is gold. Well written and truth x10.

This so true lack of communication... I like how WoW gave early patch notes and players to testing before releasing their patch...

I agree with the points in your post and wish Bungie had taken the time toll on non-professional gamers into account. Between its latest fiasco, never answering support posts in the forums, and making easily ignored forums the only way to ask for support, it is clear Bungie doesn't care about us. They got their money and we were stupid and paid for DLC that's not even done yet. Pre-ordering COD DLC a year out is nuts...Pre-ordering this DLC over a year out is super nuts. If I had bothered to research the DLC release dates and status more I wouldn't have paid for it. DLC is supposed to be an extra add-on, not a relevant part of an unfinished game. Long story short Bungie ' s not listening to us, and probably never will because we gave them our money in advance. They have no incentive to listen to us.

Bungie does give off a vibe of making this up as they go along. They were surprised by some pretty unsurprising reactions: players don't like OP weapons in the Crucible, players want a multi-player game to have voice chat, players are upset over disparity in raid rewards, players don't want to be forced to do PvE or PvP, etc. At least Bungie is responding, unlike 343's disastrously mute response to "Halo 4". As robo-lady says, "A side should always be chosen, little light, even if it's the wrong side".

This! The real crime is the lack of communication.

bump

It's interesting how we see the two ends of the spectrum with this topic. Ppl either hate the changes or ppl hate the ppl who hate the changes. I am still unsure what to think but this post does hit on an item that is factual and not opinionated: Bungie does a CRAP job informing us on the changes. If I did not have this app I would have zero clue wtf is going on. How there is no IN GAME info is a huge issue. These are big changes they are making. Again I'm not sure what to think of them yet as I want to experience it before forming an opinion. But giving us half assed info a week or so prior? That's not right. And it's frustrating. As soon as I get the hang of something they change it without a heads up or proper warning. So Bungie: please add a update/fix section on what will be changing, how the player can use this new function, and when it will hit. (Hopefully more than a week). I love the game. I really do. But they can be so much more user friendly. It's not that difficult.

Omg that post was long. Peeps complain about not having anything else to do on Destiny...this will give them something to do :(

As a long time wow player myself. I agree with you. It feels like a slap in the face. In a perspective this to me feels like if wow came out with an expansion and my character went back to level 1. and I had to level all the way to max level again instead of just 60-70 and so on and so forth. Of course people will defend bungie there are always people that do. I was one of them. Now I'm impartial I actually just resubbed to wow. Because destiny started to bore me. I might jump on for the stories but I'm just disappointed now.

Very well summed up. Far too often I feel flaws of this game fall under the excuse of 'It's an MMO' (the exact opposite happens as well for whichever genre best suits them at the time), when really there is so much that separates the two. I've enjoyed MMO's and I've fought through RNG, and I've done enough grind to make any normal person weep and have only fond memories. But Destiny just does it different, and not in a good way. I struggle to wonder if Bungie has no idea what they're doing or if they know exactly what they're doing. The content within the game is nowhere what they want for us to play extensively, so the content we get boils down to two things. Finding raid gear and finding and leveling exotic weapons. I mean, even the way they released the exotic patch, which everyone had been asking for for months, a week before the dark below seems like a PR move to get everyone excited just before release. Now this news, which is essentially their new way of drawing out the exotic process, was leaked and it feels like DeeJ had to scramble to put the news up. Really, who knows when they would have told us this if game informer didn't. Would it have been tomorrow or the next week? But you are right. We will see what they do in the coming weeks, but even if they do something, it's too late to have any trust in them. There's been too many undocumented changes in what are supposed to be transparent patch notes. Too often are we given a carrot only to be hit with the stick.

you guys are seriously fuking bitches for crying about this patch, like seriously this is probably one of the best patches bungie has released and people on the forums fuking hate em. I made a mistake coming back to the forums my time away almost made me forget how horrible the community is....

I don't agree.. but well apparently only people against everything have voices that matter

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The new starting damage is the old MAX damage... you just loose the perks

I was initially disappointed as well when I saw that I would need to re-level my exotics to max them out with the DLC. But then I realized that they don't need to be maxed out. I can still use them at 300 lvl and have them be perfectly effective. I'm not required to turn them in and max them all out. I don't think this is that big of a deal. And having to re-level my favorite weapons isn't too big of a deal either.

We're getting the exotics back at 300 atk, while not having it's perks will certainly suck it doesn't take all that long to upgrade items and they've said outright that they are making exotics faster to upgrade. The only real issue I have is the release of exotic shards before this change. If you've had this misfortune of using exotic shards to upgrade your exotics I sincerely hope that bungie is kind enough to give those shards back when you turn that exotic in for its upgrade.