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Edited by ThisWickedEarth:
5/20/2020 12:31:50 PM
60
The best argument against sun-setting: It's futility.
I have a Patron of Lost Causes.
It has:
Vorpal/Opening Shot
Rapid Hit
Flared Magwell
Polygonal Rifling
Reload Masterwork
This scout works great in PvP, and in some PvE activities. I thoroughly enjoy using it. At the moment, on my main character, it is the only scout that I carry.
It's not perfect, it's not OP. It's just an item that I acquired, that I like to use.
If there was a new seasonal scout that had similar perk options. I would not keep any roll that was close to this particular one. But just because I like THIS one. That does not mean that I wouldn't farm for a DIFFERENT roll on the "new" scout.
Now what if there was a Seraph scout? IDENTICAL to the Patron that I like, except for the ability to generate Warmind Cells. You are damn right I am farming for that one. And I might even farm for the EXACT same roll. Why?
Because it is "better"? "More powerful"? No.
I would farm for it because I KNOW what I like. And the "new" scout not only ticks that box, but it also ADDS something that my old one doesn't have.
Do I feel cheated because they are essentially the same? No. I don't have to farm the new scout. I don't HAVE to get the exact same roll(I already have my scout that I like).
But I can CHOOSE to do so if I want.
Now skip to this time next year. Same scenario. Except my Patron is now below the level cap. So using it in any activity that is light dependent, puts me at a disadvantage. New seasonal activity 20 levels above it's cap, if I CHOOSE to use it, I am hurting my bottom line when it comes to power.
But, here we are, with a "new" scout. It too does something akin to the Seraph weapons. Something cool, that I think will be useful. So I am going to farm it regardless. And I get one.
Identical to my Patron, and it's imaginary Seraph counterpart. What did I gain? How is this a benefit to me as the player? Should I be happy that RNG allows me to use more or less the same weapon I loved in the first place?
And let's say, there is no equivalent. The new scout can't get the same perks. So now I am just supposed to be happy that something I enjoyed using no longer exists for all intents and purposes?
Again, how does that benefit me, the player. Random rolled guns, generally do not upset game balance to such an extent as to need adjustment. This is one of the criticisms of the current system. If you have one Outlaw/Kill Clip 450 AR, you pretty much have them all.
So then, what is the point in sun-setting? To make space for something "new"? How "new"? How different? What if I built my loadout around a perk combination, over time, tweaked everything just the way I like it. Am I just SOL? Start over?
Why?
So that the game doesn't get stale? Who decided when it is stale? Bungie? The community? What if I am perfectly content to use my good ole Patron with Vorpal and Rapid Hit. Feels just as good in a year as it does today.
What is my incentive to chase "new" loot? Knowing that it could be a while before I find what I want. Knowing that every month that goes by, brings it closer to being put out to pasture.
What if I am running Sundial a month before the Dawn Sunset time limit expires(remember seasonal activities are going to perpetuate), and I get the PERFECT Breachlight. How good does that feel?
Knowing I have less than a month at maximum utility? How happy am I for getting that perfect roll?
The bottom line here is that Destiny 2 already made me care a lot less about gear and farming than I did in D1. The idea of putting a time limit on my day to day gear, only makes me care less.
**Edit**
Explain to me how sun-setting our RANDOM rolled gear solves the mythical "power creep". Explain how that inspires "better" loot.
Do that and I'll gladly ride the retirement train into the sunset.
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1 ReplyDoes not solve power creep yet. With sunsetting they can create more things like pre nerf recluse and leave it alone for a year cause it will work it’s way out of the system.
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1 ReplySunsetting is not really about power creep - there are lots of ways to tackle that - it is more about providing an artificial reason to grind. Unfortunately Bungie have missed the real point, most of us are looking for a reason to play and will grind for the new stuff whether it is better or not, it is not the loot that is the problem it is how we get it. The repetitive hoard modes for 3 months are not engaging regardless of the loot pool, however (at least in my opinion) the older pinnacle style quests are much more fun - even it the reward at the end is not OP. Taking the gear away has a lot more impact than Bungie imagines, perhaps they should give themselves more credit for what they create. Lots of players are really attached to the gear they have, not just because it is a stat-stick of rolls and perks but also because of how it looks, sounds and feels. When you reload the recluse and it flicks off the empty magazine, the animation, sound and controller feedback is amazing. We all have our preferences but that is the point - they look, sound and feel different. Bungie have put a huge amount of effort into creating unique weapons and then simultaneously announced none of that matters and that we should think of them as interchangeable and disposable. The level of feeling among the players is a testament to the incredible job Bungie have done designing these weapons, they really are special.
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I think a lot of this comes down to a lack of trust. A lot of players don't trust that what will be available in the future will be just as good/satisfying as their current favorites. No surprise. Bungie's been jerking us around for years now.
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2 RepliesEdited by SILLABYSS: 5/19/2020 8:25:14 PMIt’s not about power creep - it’s about money - it has always been about money with Bungie The reason things are being taken out of the store and put back in the game is because eververse is going to be where you go to purchase shortcuts- they are going to make every element in this game Grindy as all heck so that you can spend your silver to save you some time Power creep doesn’t exist - this is a Bungie argument- not a real one - Bungie are great at solving problems we never had
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13 RepliesEdited by CMWangz: 5/19/2020 9:11:50 PMSunsetting won't benefit you as a player. Bungie hasn't said they will make new perks. New perks would exacerbate power creep, which is what they are trying to prevent. Furthermore, the new weapons with new perks could exist alongside older weapons, making sunsetting unnecessary. Your scenarios demonstrate the problem perfectly. Any new weapons will either have the same perk combos or a different set of the same perks, only less beneficial to you. In the first scenario, the game becomes a loot treadmill. In the second, it becomes a downward power spiral. A loot treadmill scenario is not added value. Chasing what is essential the same gun with the same perks doesn't enhance the play experience if you have to engage in the same, worn-out activities to acquire them. A downward power creep scenario doesn't add value for obvious reasons. I can't believe people would want to play the same, worn-out activities with less effective gear. It boggles the mind. Destiny's problem is not one of loot rewards, but rather content. Loot is irrelevant if the activity to acquire it is not enjoyable. The current seasonal model is not actually going away, you will just have a whole year to complete seasonal activities. It will, in all likelihood, be the same cut-and-paste philosophy of design for next year. Come this time in 2021, you will have 4 pointless, repetitive, grindy escalation protocols, obelisk-like vendors, and nightmare hunt-style activities from the season pass and a strike or two, a dungeon, and maybe a raid from the fall dlc. And in 2022. And ind 2023. These are the things that the sycophants and apologists either don't understand or willfully ignore.
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Despite this season being quite disappointed, i still enjoyed it, Tommy's Matchbook is great, so does His heir apparent, i also did the Last Dungeon quite a lot a times, which i wasn't able to do last seasons thanks my new clan. But the Sunset announcement killed my mood. Bungie is always changing their minds, we have no idea how they will change the mechanics in the future. They have lost my trust. The next extension may be great, they will do some superb trailer who will hype me, but in the end the Sunsetting still waste everything.
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The thing is if they had implemented sun setting post Forsaken like TTK it wouldn't have been as bad, irritating but not as bad. Unfortunately they waited over two year after random rolls were reintroduced and people spent that time building up their gear. Bungie said this would solve power creep in which it won't, a tweet from Andrew Hopps said "You know how Recluse shits on everything in PvE? Weapon sunsetting means we can add more weapons that shit on everything and they just eventually fall behind in power. New weapons that shit on everything can be added without constant power creep." so hypothetically they add a Recluse level weapon for that year, that means the meta load out for pve/pvp will revolve around said weapons for that entire year and defeats their argument towards "power creep". Me personally, I like seasonal sandbox changes to keep things fresh instead ever level cap and sun setting is not only lazy but a easy way out. Power creep progress at a slow pace, it doesn't happen over night and as long as they stop introducing more damage dealing perks and control what they buff there will be no problem. All Bungie need to do is show certain archetypes some love and to come up with different perks like demolitionist, lead from gold, overflow, or more area of effect perks uniquely like meganeura etc. They're only assuming we want more damage dealing perks and a lower time to kill and believe me if Bungie can create perks in which I stated, a defense of lack of innovation is invalid. Hell they could introduce akimbo (duel wielding) smg's and sidearms with the caveat being you can't aim down sight and shared ammo reserves to balance them, same can be said with swords. I hate to bring this up but how do you think Warframe a free to play game, was said to fail just like Destiny was able to survive all this time and stay relevant with little to no controversy and backlash. It's because the devs of Warframe care about its community and doesn't half-ass their content or make excuses, example: they had a loot box system but took it out because they didn't what their player base slot machine gambling and that's what builds trust and loyalty with their brand.
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3 RepliesEdited by nusho: 5/19/2020 8:42:09 PMIt doesn't benefit you. It benefits Bungie. It makes it so that they don't have to create quality content in order to keep you playing. They just have to create the same or worse content again and again, and have you grind for it, over and over again. This lets them off the hook and puts you directly onto it. Hook, line and sinker. Bungie said that they would release weapons "as good as" and "as interesting as" Recluse. If that's the case, then why is sunsetting needed? If the weapons are "as good" and "as interesting" then there's no power creep, so no need. Also, if they're as good as, then they don't need to sunset our current weapons, because we'd be just as likely to use the new ones. No, the ONLY reason to sunset our current weapons is so they have the leeway to release lesser variants of them, leaving us with no recourse. This is an attempt to cheapen this game without it blatantly looking that way. But it looks that way anyway. They have to cheapen it because it's F2P. It's the F2P model. Look at the current content. lol.. It's been nothing but downhill toward Cheap City since Shadowkeep, and this latest season is the culmination of all of their lack of effort. This The Lie quest is the poop icing on the shit cake.
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Everytime a legendary drops I'm like "This will be useless after a few seasons."
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[quote] So then, what is the point in sun-setting? To make space for something "new"? How "new"? How different? What if I built my loadout around a perk combination, over time, tweaked everything just the way I like it. Am I just SOL? Start over? Why? What is my incentive to chase "new" loot? Knowing that it could be a while before I find what I want. Knowing that every month that goes by, brings it closer to being put out to pasture. [/quote] Armor 1.0: I had multiple specific builds for my Hunter, Titan, and Warlock designed around abilities, exotics, and weapon load outs. Had whole sets with different shaders based on void, solar, and arc. Auto rifle builds, hand cannon builds, scout rifle builds, all with corresponding armor mods. I could easily build armor geared for specific load outs and supers based on each subclass. Armor 2.0: I could no longer play, maintain, and upgrade all three classes due to insane RNG on armor. I basically quit playing Hunter and Warlock and only focused on my Titan. Prior to that, I always kept all three classes within a few levels of each other. Some weapons are farmable but armor not so much. Finally brought up all three classes to a point but now I do not have multiple builds for each subclass...I have ONE build per whole class built not around weapons or abilities but mostly around Recovery or Resilience because my armor rolls are so terrible. Gone are the elemental shader themes as I now choose one shader color for each class as the only thing that changes on my armor is what exotic piece I select per subclass. I have somewhat recently switched to just playing my void Warlock and finally have an “okay” build based on my Astrocyte Verse helmet. Sunsetting my weapons is hard because it is difficult to get good rolls for a lot of weapons. Sunsetting my armor is just wrong because what little progress I have made to get to this level will be scraped because Bungie cannot make content for both in-game loot (cosmetics) AND Eververse. I know people are exited about transmog but that just means Bungie has even less incentive to create new stuff because they know some players will be “satisfied” with just having the ability to use old gear as ornaments. And with the statement about earning or BUYING transmog, I do not feel too confident that the odds will be tipped in the player’s favor. Nobody set this schedule or content delivery method for Bungie. They chose it themselves. They chose to deliver only endgame content going forward and perpetually raising the light level. They design the seasons around very specific builds and weapon load outs and restrict choice through lack of seasonal mods on exotics and rigid weapon choices. All this to control when and how players can successfully engage the newest content. I use to love playing different content in Destiny because good gear was readily available in most of it. Now I play Gambit and PVP and don’t care about the seasonal stuff. Bungie has turned Destiny into a “Flavor of the Month” game this year and now are about to change into a “Forget It and Quit It” content delivery system.
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This post is the biggest and best argument against sunsetting. Bravo. I don’t want to be forced into obtaining something new. I want the option and choice to do so. I like obtaining something that I actually care about obtaining, not because I had to to raise my LL. Bungie is shooting themselves in the wallet with this one. I won’t support the game until they realize this is a mistake.
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Yeah this game really sucks
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It just upsets me. Because of this sunsetting they're taking the RP out of RPG. People get attached to their weapons and playstyle.
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19 RepliesEdited by Lull9: 5/19/2020 6:15:01 PMIt's all a bunch of horseshit. They already nerfed damage perks. There is a hard cap on max reload speed, even with outlaw. They are absolutely NOT going to release anything EVER that improves on either of those two points. So where is the supposed extra DPS... aka "power creep?" Everything is locked into archetypes. A year 17 legendary auto rifle is going to take the same number of shots to kill a Vandal in Trostland that a WHITE vanilla one does. Is having good base stats power creep? Lmao... a lot of guns NEED "god rolls" to even be viable because they don't even shoot straight without great perks. There is no power creep in RNG legendary weapons. I don't think people even understand what power creep means.
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1 ReplyEverything is vanity. I build, I perfect, I move on. Rinse and Repeat until Shit looks unattractive or I don't care whats going on mechanically. Litterally building manicans and making them fight. I only play to Finesse the fashion or kill shit in crucible to play into the fantasy of it.
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Yes, I agree, especially with the Edit. Show us WHY sunsetting out toys is better for US.
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7 RepliesDon’t you get bored of using the exact same weapon? Don’t you perhaps want a different one? Bungie already discussed their reasoning. What is the point of making new guns and gear only to be put aside because of the current guns and gears people are using? To them it’s a waste of time. You’re talking about choosing to farm for similar roles of guns but others dont. Others can’t be asked. The gun works? Better than others it seems then ima use it. Thats the player mindset as of late. I think sunsetting will bring a fresh sense to the game. And an entire year is a good enough period for a piece of gear or gun to be experienced. And it will be viable for another season or two after that. And whether i can use my favourite gear or not, i will just chuck it in the vault should bungie change its mine about it. The only time I’d look at sunsetting as a bad idea is if the gear or guns released are reskins of others we grinded for. Say eg recluse 2.0.
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I would farm ANY spare rations analog only because I hate so much how original looks. Same with other weapons. This game is about future and there are almost non of futuristic looking weapons. Everybody talking about how Borderlands is better than destiny in loot but nobody is talking about how it is better. In BL even same gun looks different if it has different roll because of modular system. In Destiny two different guns from different archetypes looks identical. This is EXTREMELY lazy.
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Weapon retirement is fine, you’re just mean #joke
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14 RepliesThe best argument [u] for[/u] Sunsetting weapons is bungies ineptitude. Bungie sucks ass at properly balancing weapons. Which leads to nerfs, that I don't particularly like, and I'm sure no one else does either. With that said, if weapons are sunset, they don't have to get nerfed. Meaning game breaking legendaries never have to get changed if they've got a time limit. Tbh, I'd rather a crazy powerful weapon be sunset instead of nerfed into uselessness
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6 RepliesI really don't think power creep is as much of an issue as people say it is. In D1, I could run Chaos Dogma or Fatebringer for a multitude of activities and either option would be pretty viable. Two guns released 3 years apart could both be used in VoG, lets say, and I'd be fine with either. Sunsetting weapons now would only work if Bungie can fully replace EVERYTHING being sunset with equally as interesting weapons which I don't see happening (considering how 3 reskinned rituals had to be given up for Trials). I've seen a lot of people saying that they're tired of using recluse, so can't you just stop using it? Recluse is not the only viable SMG, Shadowkeep added like 2 that are just as good (especially after the Recluse nerfs). I just don't see the point in sunsetting gear when a well placed nerf on a particularly OP weapon can open up the meta in many ways (again looking at recluse).
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Tbh I think will undermine what makes destiny destiny. If it was a one and done thing like the sunset of Taken King back in '15 I would be perfectly content with it. Most people would. But every year is just a detrement to the replay value destiny has. Chasing God Rolls for Months to get what you want and I wont be usable for more than lets say 2 Months is just Bad. My proposel would either be doing the sunset for all gear pre S12 like TTK did or just nerf/sunset the weapons which are heavily affecting the game like recluse, MT Lunas/NF and so on or just nerf all damage Perks to a unuseable State. What would also help is giving primary weapons the same damage Values they had in D1/D2 Y1. Almost no D1 godroll (neither PvE Or PvP) inluded damage Perks because Primarys were good enough on that Front but Perks that increased their consistency were the go to. A blank retirement every year is just the easy route [spoiler][i]Dont tell me: "your guns will still be there and useable in almost all content!" I know that but most old content wont be played bc it only gives retired loot and is irrelevant and besides Patrols, VG Strikes and Crucible retired gear will be unuseable because all Seasonal Activitiesand hero NFs are progressing in power each season.[/i][/spoiler]
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3 Replieshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZCP0MzPV64&feature=share
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2 RepliesEdited by Technohydra: 5/20/2020 2:07:59 PMJust...offer different perk and base stat combos on new weapons. Anyone remember Grasp of Malok? D1 rapid pulse for a strike boss. And while the gun was great, the perk pool made getting a good roll hard. I still killed Omnigal hundreds of times to get a decent one. And then came the Clever Dragon: same archetype, but with a perk pool that made getting a good roll much easier. The trade was that its base stats weren't as good. Clever Dragon didn't Invalidate Grasp of Malok, as a great Grasp was better than an OK Clever Dragon. It was an option. It was also easier to farm and easier to get a functional roll out of, so it took over. Above and beyond that, was it more powerful? Not really. It just had a narrower perk pool and didn't require a strike exploit to farm effectively. Simply play Iron Banner, and have a decent chance to get one. This all worked for a long time in D1. Again, Palindrome taking over for Eyasluna is a good example: availability, perk pool, and stats made it used more, not it being overpowered. It was fine prior, no idea why it's broken now.
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1 ReplyI remember loving my Y2 Pinnacles because their unique perks were awesome and worth the grind. I felt so freaking powerful. Then they got nerfed because they were better than everything else and nobody liked that. You speak of choice, yet act like those nerfs weren't born of obvious choices to use outdated weaponry against superior firepower. Vanilla weaponry should NOT be a deciding factor in balance going into Y4.
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1 ReplyBungie's entire model is to get you to log in more and play more. Until everyone realizes that is what they base their decisions off of, we will not get anywhere.
