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Edited by Lil Durk:
7/28/2017 2:39:48 PM
86
22 Ways Bungie Nerfed D2 to appeal to casual pvp players.
Edit:
Great insight from Scornful Orchid: [quote]Another thing Bungie seems to have overlooked is that with game modes based solely on team shooting, it leaves very little room for inexperienced or solo players to improve their [u]individual[/u] skills. Standing in a group team shooting your opponent and ducking into cover when injured teaches you nothing; opportunities to test yourself in 1v1s or 1v2s are virtually non-existent; there's no need to learn how to read your opponents when the game is telling you who's got their supers, who's picked up ammo, etc., there's no need for map awareness, knowledge of choke points, spawn points, etc. when all you have to do is tag along with your team-mates group shooting anyone daft enough to stick their head out. If I ever wanted to get good at PvP, this would be the last thing I would want.[/quote]
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Original post:
In Destiny 2, Bungie:
1. [b]drastically increased[/b] ability cooldowns.
2. [b]drastically increased[/b] super cooldowns.
3. [b]drastically decreased[/b] all weapon damage.
4. [b]drastically decreased[/b] melee damage.
5. [b]drastically decreased[/b] grenade damage.
6. [b]drastically decreased[/b] shoulder charge damage.
7. [b]drastically decreased[/b] Warlock melee range and hunter blink strike range.
8. [b]drastically decreased[/b] the effectiveness of shadestep.
9. [b]Removed[/b] super energy gained from capturing flags in control.
11. [b]Removed[/b] blink from hunters.
12. [b]Removed[/b] flame shield from warlocks.
13. [b]Removed[/b] backstab from hunters.
14. [b]Removed[/b] invisibility from hunters.
15. [b]Removed[/b] machine guns.
16. [b]Removed[/b] special ammo.
17. [b]Removed[/b] Keyhole and Combustion.
18. [b]Removed[/b] Ignite, Viking Funeral, Touch of Flame, and Gift of the Sun for Warlocks.
19. [b]Removed[/b] Weapons and Blessings of Light for Titans.
20. Life steal now requires a kill to activate.
21. Heavy ammo now only gives ammo to one person.
22. [b]Removed[/b] random weapon rolls.
Pretty sure that's everything...
Now I listed all that to show just how much Bungie has severely nerfed Destiny 2. If you're wondering why they did this, it's simple: to appeal to the casual pvp audience. Some people think Destiny 2 is catered to elite streamers. That couldn't be further from the truth.
Destiny 2 is completely overhauled to cater to [i]unskilled[/i] pvp players. Think about it. How many players in the last 3 years have stayed out of pvp, simply because it was too hard? A LOT! This is no shot at pve players. I loved the strikes and raids. But I also enjoyed pvp. I switched between both.
But Bungie doesn't care about people like me. [b]They want the pve players.[/b] That's right. That's their target audience. All of these crippling nerfs were to make pvp easier to draw in players who normally wouldn't give pvp the time of day.
Bungie: "Look guys, we nerfed LITERALLY EVERYTHING! Now you never have to worry about getting outplayed again! Just run around the map in a constant pack of 4, and you can teamshot your way to victory! No more pesky melees, grenades, or supers to get in your way! Just aim and shoot and victory is yours!"
They've essentially dumbed Destiny down to be a sad Halo attempt, for the sake of coddling players who lacked the skill to be successful in pvp before. Tactics and skill are now largely irrelevant, as simple math will always determine who wins. 4v1, 4v2, 3v1, 3v2, 2v1. Pretty much, games are now decided by who can teamshoot better. And [i]that,[/i] is just sad.
To hell with pve. To hell with the rest of the pvp audience. That's the message Bungie has sent. How will you respond?
English
#feedback
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They nerfed the fun 100 percent!
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2 RepliesEdited by Brandolier: 7/24/2017 11:45:30 PMPretty sure this was all for the benefit of the hardcore PvPers who are very vocal on the forums, not the casuals. Casuals liked bigger maps with more supers. It was the try-hards who bitched about not wanting large maps with vehicles because it took "less skill." They were the ones who constantly pushed for smaller PvP maps and smaller PvP teams (see Trials). Try-hards were the ones who complained that supers were a "crutch" that let people get kills without gun skills, rather than acknowledging that supers were the part of Destiny that was fresh and fun, not the gunplay, because there are dozens of games with good gunplay. I completely disagree with you because most of the PvP changes conform to EXACTLY the requests that the try-hard, elitist PvPers were yapping about in the forums. It was not the casuals who made these requests. They want big maps with vehicles and fun exploding supers again.
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12 RepliesBungie decided to plan this game's PvP that would cater to hardcore players in the realm of ESports. The realm of ESports is based on teamwork. Here are two examples of said teamwork. http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/WindSentinel/video/34416941 http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/WindSentinel/video/34416971
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In Destiny 2, Bungie: 1. drastically increased ability cooldowns. It's been confirmed armor will have perks to reduce these cooldowns. 2. drastically increased super cooldowns. Same as #1. 3. drastically decreased all weapon damage. You now need to hit more bullets to kill someone...as in needing MORE consistency in your shots 4. drastically decreased melee damage. Trying to promote more gunplay, I personally believe it should be a 2 punch still...throwing knife being as weak as it is really bugs me. 5. drastically decreased grenade damage. I'm for certain grenades being nerfed, against others. incendiaries and suppressor nades should have a much larger aoe and much less damage dropoff. skips and other non-skilled grenades should do less and shouldnt track as quickly 6. drastically decreased shoulder charge damage. Okay shoulder charge took next to no skill to begin with, this should simply be an extended melee. 7. drastically decreased Warlock melee range and hunter blink strike range. Not being able to snipe with a melee is a bad thing? 8. drastically decreased the effectiveness of shadestep. I find Shadestep is fine still, you can still roll pretty far. 9. Removed super energy gained from capturing flags in control. This I kind of see as unnecessary. It promoted people capping points 11. Removed blink from hunters. I'm fine with this, I personally love triple jump, being able to bounce around and kill or avoid death is a skillful tactic 12. Removed flame shield from warlocks. Hmmm, removed a one-punch overshield granting ability....yep fine with that! 13. Removed backstab from hunters. Again, removing a 1-hit kill ability does not upset me 14. Removed invisibility from hunters. Come on...if you are trying to insinuate camo took skill your arguments going off the rails 15. Removed machine guns. They were OP for PvP. You could conserve ammo so well and just steamroll people with them. 16. Removed special ammo. Heaven forbid you use a primary! Not being able to camp snipers, ape with shotties/sidearms does not upset me at all and definitely promotes a more skillful game 17. Removed Keyhole and Combustion. These have nothing to do with competitive play at all. It was extremely rare for either of those perks to be a factor when shooting GG in PvP 18. Removed Ignite, Viking Funeral, Touch of Flame, and Gift of the Sun for Warlocks. All of these perks may be gone, but Dawnblade is by far a worthy successor, and imo a more skilled class 19. Removed Weapons and Blessings of Light for Titans. Again this is a PvE thing that only makes it harder for us....sooo how's that a casual thing? 20. Life steal now requires a kill to activate. So you don't instantly heal a chunk of health mid-fight from your punch and now are on equal grounds... 21. Heavy ammo now only gives ammo to one person. Again so we are forced to use our primaries...the thing that is harder to kill with... 22. Removed random weapon rolls. I have never gotten a god roll Eyasluna from all the time I've played D1. Some guy who played 2 hours could have a better roll than me and have a gun advantage because of it. This negates that and puts everyone on equal grounds...again another staple for competitive games. I get some of your points, but as a whole it's a weak argument to say that Destiny 2 is catered more towards Casuals, this is a more competitive game that focuses on teamwork.
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5 RepliesThere was little to no gun skill in D1 as well it was a ability spam fest.
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Non pvpers r the casuals
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I have to completely disagree with you. Everything they have done is for the more tatical team based combat. I actually really struggle to understand how you think its more casual maybe you like to think of yourself as more of the hardcore PVP player. Reducing hitbox size makes the game more casual? Seriously bro?? C'mon. Require more team coordination makes the game more casual? Increasing time to kill makes the game more casual? i don't actually like the PVP i generally only played it casually now its kinda ruined.
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4 RepliesEven halo understood that shotguns shouldn't be heavy though lol..
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1 ReplyFantastic post. Other than the potential for story, cool looking cosmetic stuff, and potentially a few new cool pve things to do, I don't feel like there is much drawing me to D2 now. Even for how awesome these new additions can be, if we are always weak as shit and unable to heroically handle shit on our own or use our powers, then all the content in the world is going to suck ass. They have stalled the engine that made destiny.
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Edited by Dozer: 7/25/2017 10:56:27 AMJust doesn't feel fun anymore. Not that I find PvP/ death-match fun, nor have I now for many long years; old-hat, same crap, different title. Nothing feels fresh, once again, in this PvP aspect. Even if I did like PvP, there are far better (in so many aspects, not just aesthetics alone) titles out there. This lackluster change is either due to (a) Bungie's new vision for the next Destiny competitive PvP, or, (b) listening to a group minority who represent a small percentage of total player base. If the retail product is not very engaging for PvE and it feels flat, then, well, maybe it's high time we all just accept the fact that Bungie thinks Destiny 2 is going to "redefine the wheel" (PvP) and take the gaming industry by storm. And if so, I doubt majority community is that dumb and gullible enough to think we cannot get better elsewhere. I must admit, all of my excitement right now is stemming from just being eager to see what the hell this [i]rendition[/i] will be like If Bungie cares about PvE players, they have a sick way of showing it. Look at all the gripes, the [i]same ones[/i] that go back to year one. The nerfs and balancing for PvP sake, without cause or concern about the increased displeasure the PvE community felt. That is just...so twisted
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10 RepliesPlease. The changes fit countdown or competitive mode to a T. The design, build, weapon loadout is centrally focused around competitive PvP. You could argue the K/D system is more forgiving to help the casual PvP player but the core design caters to competitive PvP. Is this bad? No, not for THAT mode. The design is off, way off for other modes and I seriously doubt any core designs will change from now until launch.
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1 ReplyWhat's funny is you've defeated your own argument. You say casuals running around in packs team shooting everyone. Well to me that sounds more like the activity of fireteams. Not casuals. A casual is a player who pops in and out of activities when time allows and normally runs solo. Making maps smaller and increasing the ttk slower makes life more difficult for casual players. Before the casual can put the opponent down they have already communicated to the other members of the team and the casual has no chance. In large maps with six players you could hang back with the group for a second asses the situation and form a strategy. With 4v4 as a casual you spawn away from the group and around every corner there are two players from the opposite team. PvP in D2 is not casual friendly at all.
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This is what the community has been asking for since the games release, now that we have it everyone is very quickly changing their opinions. Here is the situation from the prospective of someone who understands bungie isnt operated by evil money grubbing animated fst cats twirling handlebar mustaches. Community: i want this *points to toy* Bungie: okay here *hands us the toy* Community: *throws toy on floor* you never listen to me, i hate you, youre the worst!" Bungie: "sorry? How can i make it better?" Community: "get me a toy" Bungie: "okay... which one?" Community:" i want this *points to toy*" ... D2 is eccentially bungie buying the whole damn toystore to satisfy the community. And before you say "that was just the casual or the below adverage players demanding nerfs and the top players never asked for anything like that" Youd be wrong, infact a lot of the top destiny players out right demanded nerfs, got nerfs, then they themselves did a 180 and said that nerfs were aweful. Weither here on the forum or on their streams, in fact the top players seemed the [b]most[/b] vocal about demanding change. So i only see 2 soulutions, either bungie puts their foot down and ignores the community, which most of the community thinks they do anyway... and lose a little reputation but can then focus on fixing the game, or the community can change and realize the cycle they keep feeding into of "we want nerfs, we get nerfs, we complain about nerfs" Personally, im just here for the ride.
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3 RepliesA few small changes that aren't talked about that are bad changes. No connection bar indicator. Protecting red bars No indicator you're up against a fire team. No roster while matchmaking.
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1 ReplyYou forgot where they removed ohk weapons from pvp via the new weapon loadout system.
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9 RepliesActually that sounds like 22 nerfs for hardcore PvP players made so that Crucible becomes more "competitive". All changes made to either slow down TTK, or to make the game more predictable in PVP.
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1 ReplyEdited by Fos Kuvol: 7/25/2017 10:43:24 AMAll of this sounds either non-affecting for casual players (invisibility, debuffs that only mattered in pve and served only to make it easier, machine guns being taken out) or like crutches casuals relied on being removed. Slowing killtimes makes the game more about gun skill and mastering the "dance" of combat to win than fights being determined primarily by who saw who first 90% of the time, and reaction time the other 10%. One hit kills being relegated to map pickups and supers means players need to do more to earn their kill. Control the power ammo spawns, work together, combine grenades, guns, and melee instead of just spamming one or the other. The more a player has to do, the more skill is required to do it. Properly usig these tools, and properly using your weapons' strengths also makes 2, and on occasion 3v1s possible. Heavy going to one person means A: picking it up actually makes you more of a threat. And B: Controlling the spawns are even MORE important, because if you don't get both at least 3 people on your team are instantly made vulnerable. Teamwork and map control take more skill than crowding around the heavy near your spawn, and hoping your volley of rockets is more effective than theirs. Modified cooldowns on abilities was more drastic than it should have been, yes. But important, and will likely be changed based on feedback. In Destiny 1 it was easy to feel like my grenade was always there when I wanted it. I SHOULD feel like I need to consider waiting until I NEED it. Just a few examples of how your points do NOT make the game more casual, just different. Possibly even less casual. Also PS: Teamwork, and Team Shooting is not casual, it actually requires coordination, practice, and communication to do properly that can be much harder to attain than sticking a fusion nade, scoring a snipe, or titan skating to rush someone before they have a chance to react.
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No vanilla D1 was catered to casuals D2 caters to E-Sport. They want it to go MLG. Like my comment or not it is the truth.
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2 RepliesWow. all correct. You forgot they removed fun from the game as well
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46 Replieslol @ this player having no idea. It benefits the opposite type of player to casuals. The changes are for the benefit of competitive players and not the casual players. There is no skill involved in D1 crucible............you just spam grenades and supers which definitely can be fun to play but it just doesn't hold up for competitive play in the eSports arena.
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30 RepliesJesus, everything you wrote down as a change isn't even that bad. Let me spoonfeed it to you since you are too infantile to comprehend it on your own. [quote] 1. drastically increased ability cooldowns. 2. drastically increased super cooldowns. [/quote] None of our armor in the beta has the perks to reduce cooldown of our supers or grenades. These are base cooldowns of a months old build. [quote] 3. drastically decreased all weapon damage. 4. drastically decreased melee damage. 5. drastically decreased grenade damage. 6. drastically decreased shoulder charge damage. [/quote] Yeah I'm really gonna miss unfair gunplay and getting oneshot by titans running around. Increased TTK isn't going to ruin your life, it requires better skill and a little forethought about each fight. [quote] 7. drastically decreased Warlock melee range and hunter blink strike range. 8. drastically decreased the effectiveness of shadestep. [/quote] This is a huge improvement for those of us that didn't rely on these in pvp to cover mistakes [quote] 11. Removed blink from hunters. 12. Removed flame shield from warlocks. 13. Removed backstab from hunters. 14. Removed invisibility from hunters. 15. Removed machine guns. 16. Removed special ammo. 17. Removed Keyhole and Combustion. 18. Removed Ignite, Viking Funeral, Touch of Flame, and Gift of the Sun for Warlocks. 19. Removed Weapons and Blessings of Light for Titans. 20. Life steal now requires a kill to activate. 21. Heavy ammo now only gives ammo to one person. [/quote] These are the best changes. Don't see how any of these being removed are damaging to the game. [quote] 22. Removed random weapon rolls. [/quote] Oh no, your 3-tap Luna is gone, how will you ever recover from being put on the same playing field as your opponents, forcing the game to be determined by skill?
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Edited by Darth Lunchbox: 7/25/2017 1:40:07 PMI want some of whatever you've been smoking, conspiracy theory person. Do I need to supply my own tin hat though? Bungie is trying to cater PVP to the e-sports scene, not make it casual friendly, they've pretty much said that.
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1 Replyi disagree that bungie is trying to make it easier for casuals. they are trying to make it more competitive and team oriented, and from your post it sounds like you agree with the latter. a good number of people in my clan are pve mains and whenever we do crucible together a lot of them either have a hard time sticking with me (which i don't really get) or have a hard time/just don't won't to take direction. i don't know how many times i have told my team, "lets just hold A and B" only to have someone say right after, "nah man i spawned closed to C (probably right around B) so I'm gonna cap it" then they fail to cap it and the spawns get flipped. my point is some people just aren't that good at pvp and making it more team oriented isn't going to magically make casuals better, if anything they will eventually learn to get better or just stick to pve.
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4 Replies>drastically increased ability cooldowns. Remember the D1 beta? You'll get your gear to fix that. >drastically increased super cooldowns. See above. >drastically decreased all weapon damage. What's your definition of "drastically"? The ttk is SLIGHTLY higher. Sorry you can't solo an entire fireteam anymore and need to coordinate >drastically decreased melee damage. Seeing a theme here. You do 90 damage with a melee. That's what, 10 points lower? Maybe don't just ape for kills >drastically decreased grenade damage. Good. 1-2 combos for easy kills in D1 was and is no-skill garbage. Try using different grenades >drastically decreased shoulder charge damage. Finally, your use of "drastically" reigns true here. BUT, it does AoE damage now, so you could potentially kill an entire team if they're low on health and bunched up with one attack. >drastically decreased Warlock melee range and hunter blink strike range. False as far as warlock goes. I personally didn't play much hunter. >drastically decreased the effectiveness of shadestep. False. Shadestep doesn't exist in the skilltree anymore. It's a dodge. Sorry you can't iframe through an attack anymore. >Removed super energy gained from capturing flags in control. I completely agree that this is bullshit. You should be rewarded for capping. >Removed blink from hunters. GOOD. And you never know, they could be saving it for Nightstalker. >Removed flame shield from warlocks. This is also good. A free overshield without even scoring a kill to earn it? Flameshield melee-offs were unfair to begin with. >Removed backstab from hunters. I might be reaching here, but it might have something to do with it being broken throughout Destiny 1's entire lifespan. I'll still get one-shot front stabbed if I get on today. >Removed invisibility from hunters. GOOD. Noob tactic. Again, potentially saving for Nightstalker. Fits the theme better. >Removed machine guns. They will be missed :( >Removed special ammo. In favor of a different loadout system. >Removed Keyhole and Combustion. Oh no, Bungie is making actual changes to subclasses? Call the cops. >Removed Ignite, Viking Funeral, Touch of Flame, and Gift of the Sun for Warlocks. AFAIK they still have at least one ability that does damage over time. Again, changing how a subclass works in a SEQUEL? Blasphemy. >Removed Weapons and Blessings of Light for Titans. We must be playing a different game. Sentinel has a SINGLE ability that heals THE WHOLE TEAM and grants an overshield to THE WHOLE TEAM for just a single melee kill. Warlocks have built-in weapons of light now. >Life steal now requires a kill to activate. Good. It was always bullshit that the class with the highest melee range was granted free life on hit. >Heavy ammo now only gives ammo to one person. You mean POWER ammo. This is also good. No more stomping the other team because they didn't all grab it. >Removed random weapon rolls. We don't even know what weapon mods will exist yet. My point is, the beta was meant to be a network stress test. Everyone cried for changes and claimed that Destiny 2 was just Destiny 1.5. Bungie made changes, and now you cry about said changes. If they let you have all the awesome shit in the beta, what would be the point in playing the final game?
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A lot of back and forth on this, everyone is entitled to their opinons. That being said, I pretty much agree about catering to PvP casual players -- the proof? Efficiency Rating instead of Kill/Death Ratio. It doesn't take much skill from a single player to Team shot a single player on another team, which will then raise both team-shooting players' Efficiency Rating. This was the point of the changes. The whole PvP is re-designed to be simplified compared to D1, and in turn, is catering to casual players.
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You forgot they removed a weapon loadout system that actually worked, and replaced it with garbage.
