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Edited by kellygreen45:
11/26/2020 2:18:08 PM
15
Disagree.
I think Bungie is finally catching on to something that should have happened years ago....and is part of how other games keep snipers in their lane as situational weapons.
Part of the reason why this game has an impossible to solve special weapons problem, is beause there is no PENALTY to being caught using one outside of its optimal range.
Guardians can move so fast relative to primary weapon time to kill that if they get caught out with a shotgun? Either ape right at your target and get into shotgun range before they can' kill you with their primary......
....or simply run for cover.
For years in this game, sniper rifles have had the same quick, snappy handling as primaries....despite having the power to OHK. Plus the short zoom scopes basically allowed them to be used as OHK battle rifles. So get caught out with a sniper? Either use the high aim assist to drag scope your opponent while you tank incoming primary fire......
....or you body shot them with that sniper...and then clean them up with a hand cannon or a sidearm.
Sorry, but this is a smart move on Bungie's part to make "aggressive sniping" less attractive, and to enforce a penalty for being over aggressive or being caught out of position with a sniper rifle in your hands.
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MilkIn forum jail again. Be back soon. 💕🥛 - old
Finally, someone managed to put it into words. In almost every other game I've played, getting caught outside of your effective range was a bad thing, but that doesn't really happen with Destiny. -
Edited by kellygreen45: 11/26/2020 3:08:29 PMNo. It doesn't. Which is why....once you reach a certain level of Crucible play....no one gets into primary gun fights anymore (unless they're team shooting)....and why special weapons are the de facto **primaries** in any 1v1 encounter. Why should engage you with my primary, when I can body shot you with a sniper....and then pull out a hand cannon and clean you up.....faster than most of the game's primaries can kill you? ...and in many cases never actually leave cover while I do it?
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Milk
In forum jail again. Be back soon. 💕🥛 - old
We're you talking to the other guy, my guy? -
Edited by kellygreen45: 11/26/2020 3:30:56 PMNo, I was talking to you. I was just agreeing with you that those things dont' really happen in Destiny....and just expanded on your point a little by pointing out the problems it creates. Its why I'm taking the other guy to task. Bungie specifically made those changes to snipers in an effort to put snipers BACK into their lane...and to make them the situaitonal, ambush weapons they are in other shooters. Instead having people run around with them like they are OHK, Battle Rifles. We know that was their intention, because they warned us in a TWAB last summer that these changes were coming.
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Milk
In forum jail again. Be back soon. 💕🥛 - old
Gotcha. -
[quote]Finally, someone managed to put it into words. In almost every other game I've played, getting caught outside of your effective range was a bad thing, but that doesn't really happen with Destiny.[/quote] Where was this discussion the last two seasons when Autos outperformed everything in all but sniper ranges? When it encroached upon the same fire rate smgs in their own effective range to the point of them being obsolete, still there post nerf. When they could shoot as far as the best pulses. Lol 50 zoom for a low impact sniper that can't one shot supers other than a goldy gun is too much the way the maps are designed. It's fine for Adored. Cause it's an adaptive frame.
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Kelly. By your own testimony you quit PvP. You claimed you would be leaving this game before long because of the choices concerning Stasis Warlocks. I don't believe you're anyone's authority on the Crucible. High impact snipers should have high zoom so people aren't slide shotting with them. 140s, should not.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 11/26/2020 2:29:41 PMBelieve what you want. Despite not having played this game's PVP in months, I've played enough of it over the years to STILL be in the top 3-4% in the world in Crucible kills. So I've played ALOT of Crucible over years, and I am VERY familiar with the ways in which this game's sandbox is poorly balanced...and why this game can't get its sandbox under control where other shooter games can. ...and that understanding is a major part of the reason WHY I no longer play Crucible. I consider it to be an inferior product, that is fatally flawed. ...and what you're complaining about **appears** to be Bungie gettign around to dealing with one of those foundational flaws. In Titanfall, all snipers handle sluggishly. Which is why you don't see any Titanfall players---except for the very best of teh best----running around in the middle of the map engaging people with sniper rifles at close-to-mid-range. Instead they are using snipers as they are used IRL. As long range, ambush weapons whose purpose is to control movement and control territory from a distance. ...and if you want to use it any other way, the skill requirement to do so effectively is HIGH. Bungie droppped a hint this summer that their goal is to get snipers back into that lane...and increasing the zoom on scopes, reducing the aim-assist, and slowing the handling of snipers is a smart way to do that.
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Edited by Seiryoku: 11/26/2020 2:50:37 PM[quote]Believe what you want. Despite not having played this game's PVP in months, I've played enough of it over the years to STILL be in the top 3-4% in the world in Crucible kills. So I've played ALOT of Crucible over years, and I am VERY familiar with the ways in which this game's sandbox is poorly balanced...and why this game can't get its sandbox under control where other shooter games can. ...and that understanding is a major part of the reason WHY I no longer play Crucible. I consider it to be an inferior product, that is fatally flawed. ...and what you're complaining about **appears** to be Bungie gettign around to dealing with one of those foundational flaws. ...and if you want to use it any other way, the skill requirement to do so effectively is HIGH. Bungie droppped a hint this summer that their goal is to get snipers back into that lane...and increasing the zoom on scopes, reducing the aim-assist, and slowing the handling of snipers is a smart way to do that.[/quote] You are not explaining anything to anyone they don't already understand you condescending, arrogant, pedantic, ever present not sought after drivel peddler. Following everyone about on the forums as though you were the foremost authority on every matter. Lol. Self appointed. I know the reason behind their choices and understand them quite well. I am saying that they have been too severe in their efforts as they pertain to 140s. I reside at 0.2% in the world for kills in Crucible and have played every day. I possess infinitely more kills on every weapon type save fusions compared to you since you think mentioning such things are relevant. I have a fair understanding of both weapon usage and being killed by them in every sandbox iteration. Thank you for your input and your opinion. 16 meter melee is still further than Chaperone with Roadborn on your Warlock.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 11/26/2020 3:10:35 PMResorting to name calling is a sign that you're losing the arguments on the merits. Attacking my credibility, rather than actually engaging what I said, is another sign that you are losing the argument on the merits. Bottomline? You can call me every name but the one my mother actually gave me and: 1. I won't care....because I won't be bullied. 2. It won't change the fact that you are arguing to defend a set of FLAWED practices by Bungie that have made it impossible for them to properly balance special weapons with respect to primary weapons. These changes will make snipers less dominant, because it will (finally) exact a penalty from the player for their being used outside of their intended lane. You're mad....and you're gonna take that frustration out on me. [quote]Thank you for your input and your opinion. 16 meter melee is still further than Chaperone with Roadborn on your Warlock.[/quote] Which is not relevant to this discussion (smokescreen) and not relevant to the design of an Action-RPG. Which is why I said Bungie needs to stop letting PvP dominate how the sandbox gets tuned **if** they want this game to reach its potential as an action-RPG. Because the reality---as people have been lining up to say---that the nerf to the Shadebinders' melee attack BROKE it in PVE. Because Chaperone's slug has a damage drop off. It doesn't reach the end of its range...and then when it goes one meter beyond that...simply hit its target in the chest for NO DAMAGE. Or once the enemy gets within a certain range....the weapon JAMS...and fails to fire. Just sayin.
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Edited by Seiryoku: 11/26/2020 3:40:42 PMDon't exemplify those qualities and no one could make any such suggestion about you or your character. You are the one always attempting to argue with every individual in the forums. And this isn't about winning or losing anything. It's sad you come here thinking that way. It's about seeing the best possible version of Destiny and lending my experience to that end, whether you agree or not. Based upon your understanding you feel the way that you do. You cite experience to bolster your assertions. I am of the opposite mindset, specifically as it pertains to low impact, fast shooting snipers. I possess more experience than you. So what is the scale we should measure by then? My experience suddenly holds less credence cause I pointed out your nature? I think not. Most people here know how you operate. You suggested multiple times that this game is flawed because changes are made with consideration to PvP. Activities that make up half the game. Activities that you don't enjoy so you ignore their presence or speak ill of them here. I still enjoy them, and I would see a balance struck. If we follow this trend, the Crucible will be rampant with Felwinter's, Arbalest (25 zoom), and Bastion.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 11/26/2020 3:33:08 PMDude. You can keep trying to take my inventory all day long, and I STILL won't care what you think....and I still won't be thrown off the scent. Though you are welcome to waste your time trying. Sandboxes in shooters are balanced by TRADE off. Primary weapons do less damage, but are more agile and easier to use than heaviier weapons. Heavier weapons do more damage, but fire slower, and handle more sluggishly. If you fail to follow those rules, you throw off the balance of the game....and what ever weapon has the best combination of damage-and-ease of use will become the de facto "primary" weapon of the game. In short, Bungie foolishly built a class of snipers that had a lot of advatages over primary weapons in terms of time to kill....while almost NO disadvantages. Snipers were not asked to make any significant trade-offs when equipping one in PvP. They became PvPs de facto primary weapons...and were allowed to dominate the game. Bungie tried initially to walk this back by increasing the flinch....but many snipers have mastered controlling that flinch...and negated the change. So now, Bungie is going to do what most other shooter games do. Make the handling of snipers more sluggish, and to increase the zoom of scopes so that there is a higher situational awareness penalty paid in their use....and they are more difficult to use at closer ranges because of the limited field of view. In short. Bungie's making them harder to use...and is raising the skill floor that is required to use them effectively. Anyone who is interested in balanced sandbox, sees the wisdom in the changes. But you are simply here to defend a perferred play style...and the health of the game as a whole can simply get reckted, eh? TLDR: I'm not calling your knowledge into question. I'm calling your MOTIVES into question. My frustration with this community is that so many PVP players show here arguing for sandbox changes that are NOT in the interest of a more balanced sandbox or a healthier game....but whose goal is to give advantage to personal play style.
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[quote] Sandboxes in shooters are balanced by TRADE off. Primary weapons do less damage, but are more agile and easier to use than heaviier weapons. Heavier weapons do more damage, but fire slower, and handle more sluggishly. Anyone who is interested in balanced sandbox, sees the wisdom in the changes. But you are simply here to defend a perferred play style...and the health of the game as a whole can simply get reckted, eh?[/quote] I'm not your "dude". Someone 50+ shouldn't use such colloquialism and we are not friends. I'm sure that's confusing with the frequency I find you underfoot on my posts. And everyone else's for that matter. You simply can't help yourself. So you go on talking about game design at me, while I put forth feedback. This isn't my first game, bro lol. Change was necessary, I'm not denying that. The heavy handed change as it pertains to 140s leaves them feeling obsolete when compared to things like the adaptive frame Adored. Which hits significantly harder for the same zoom. As well as high impact snipers like the one from the new Raid, with low rpm. Also with 50 zoom. 50 is not some magic number to be blanket applied if anyone is to be interested in using anything other than Adored or the aforementioned weapons.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 11/26/2020 3:42:36 PM[quote]I'm not your "dude". Someone 50+ shouldn't use such colloquialism and we are not friends.[/quote] Don't remember asking your opinion on how I choose to express myself. As for the rest of this rant of yours...as so many of you do...you missed the point completely. I'm not here to **educate** you on how shooters work. I'm here to call you OUT on asking for a set of changes that have nothing to so with the health of the overall game, or what is best for a balanced sandbox. Its the obnoxious tendency that shooter gamers have to try to "work the refs" to gain advantage for their own play styles. Usually to the detriment of the rest of the game. Like sunsetting, Bungie is just falling in line with a way of tuning snipers that has been shown to work WELL in terms of balancing OHK firearms with multi-shot firearms. With the goal of putting those snipers BACK in their appropriate lane Not only are these changes right for hte game as a whole...they should have been done years ago. In fact, doing this FIRST, instead of ratcheting up flinch would likely have been the right move in terms of reining in snipers in PvP. Without making them nightmarish to use in PVE. But as Bungie goes on, they learn, and they are becoming more and more surgical in their adjustements to weapons so that the changes impact one side of the game more than the other. TLDR: Bungie made these changes to change the role that snipers play in the game....and to make them unpleasant to try to use in the old ways that people have tried to use them.
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[quote] Don't remember asking your opinion on how I choose to express myself. [spoiler]I don't recall asking for your limited understandings of the Crucible.[/spoiler] As for the rest of this rant of yours...as so many of you do...you missed the point completely. I'm not here to **educate** you on how shooters work. [spoiler]So many of who? People you feel compelled to dismiss in the forums? I understood your point. It's limited in its logic. You might not be here for that reason, and yet, multiple responses later you still try.[/spoiler] I'm here to call you OUT on asking for a set of changes that have nothing to so with the health of the overall game, or what is best for a balanced sandbox. Its the obnoxious tendency that shooter gamers have to try to "work the refs" to gain advantage for their own play styles. [spoiler]It has everything to do with it. The choice to craft the weakest hitting Snipers to have the same zoom as the hardest hitting leaves them less enticing to use. So no variety. Designing Cloudstrike to be a 140 with such high zoom has made it one more novelty sniper for the game. One that feels bad to use, even if the perk is exciting.[/spoiler] Like sunsetting, Bungie is just falling in line with a way of tuning snipers that has been shown to work WELL in terms of balancing OHK firearms with multi-shot firearms. With the goal of putting those snipers BACK in their appropriate lane [spoiler]So they were overboard on the things you enjoy but the choices were sound of mind despite the variables I have offered? Interesting.[/spoiler] Not only are these changes right for hte game as a whole...they should have been done years ago. In fact, doing this FIRST, instead of ratcheting up flinch would likely have been the right move in terms of reining in snipers in PvP. Without making them nightmarish to use in PVE. [spoiler]They are nightmarish to use in PvE? [/spoiler] TLDR: Bungie made these changes to change the role that snipers play in the game....and to make them unpleasant to try to use in the old ways that people have tried to use snipers in this game. [spoiler]The same philosophy behind the changes to Warlocks I believe.[/spoiler] [/quote]
