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Edited by Kevin:
9/15/2019 6:43:43 PM
83
The Raid Revive System
It really needs to change.
I’d say one of the underlying issues in Raids is that there aren’t as many hero moments any more because every time there’s an opportunity for a fireteam to 2 man the remainder of the encounter they get wiped because of the timer. Go back to the old system or at least just remove the wipe timer.
Edit: All the "Get Good" and "Don't Die" posts obviously completely missed the point of this post, because if they had taken a second to read and understand they would have realized I'm calling for Bungie to stop force wiping an entire team because of a slip up and to let the remaining fireteam make the call whether to wipe or try and clutch. D1 Hard Mode Raids made you improvise when things didn't go according to plan. Someone die across the bridge in Crota? Welp, we have to improvise, fill in the gaps and try and keep going. Did the blessing for some reason not transfer during Totems and someone died? Better try and fill in fast. In D1 Bungie gave us room for error and the ability for the best raid teams to adapt and overcome mistakes. Now, the entire team gets wiped because of a timer. Look a Gahlrans Deception, perfect example of potential hero moments if someone dies and can't be revived. The living partner has to poentially avoid Gahlran, take out the witches and ogre, and transfer buff all by himself. Completely possible, but because of Time constraints the entire fireteam goes down. If anything it takes less skill for Bungie to wipe everyone than to try and clutch.
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16 RepliesD1 Raid mechanics are UNEQUIVOCALLY better than D2 Raid mechanics Gone are the hero moments of old when one man would solo Templar with his dead teammates cheering him on Now everyone has to be alive at all times for whatever reason
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31 RepliesAWhen D2 launched you had a short window to pick someone up or you wiped. This virtually eliminated "Hero moments" because you quickly failed if you didn't pick someone up, so once you were out of Tokens and had Guardians down your fate was sealed. One of the main goals of that system was to encourage teams to revive their teammates because it feels bad to sit around in the dead box not contributing. We got a lot of feedback about this and made a change to the 2:30 pool of time. As long as you are diligent about reviving your allies you should have a decent amount of time in the end for the remnants of your fireteam to beat the encounter in spectacular fashion. That's some of the thinking behind the current system anyway. I'll pass along your feedback to the team about possibly adjusting this further in the future.
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D1 system felt far better that the D2 system
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Never done a raid, but in the end I would rather take an onslaught of skill based action, rather than a controlled encounter based on revive tokens. Also Guardians are made to be revived, taking that out makes the lore only for gameplay purposes, and not gameplay enhancing the being that is a Guardian.
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D1 system...meaning they will have to make a normal and hard mode. Normal: unlimited (you/other people maybe learning, honing skills). Hard mode: None
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well i mean, strategy. guardians ghosts can get shut the -blam!- down so taking tike to revive a teammate would be useless if you both get gunned down. its a focus thing ig
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21 RepliesShould honestly be like it was in D1 Infinite revive on normal modes and no revive on hard mode
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Edited by Nexus_One: 9/16/2019 5:24:09 PMOP is 100% correct. The wipe timers need to go away. They take so much of the fun and excitement out of the game. Down to three players alive and only two revives? Might as well just wipe. Where is the fun in that scenario that happens way too much. It's the main reason I don't raid nearly as often as I did in D1.
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Honestly, the timer before you can revive, and the unlimited lives was a better system. Couple people go down, you've got to wait. If too many go down, it'll likely be a wipe. I remember one time on Crota's end, I revived all five of my teammates running blade dancer with invisibility. Felt pretty good. Pretty sure we ended up getting slaughtered after that but hey, you win and you lose.
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My most memorable raid moments were watching a team 3 man confluxes in vog hard mode (which may not actually be difficult but it was fun to watch) and when all 6 died during aksis, a warlock self rezed, everyone got revived, and we beat the encounter. The old revive system was so much better but current raids aren't really designed to be doable with less than 6 players, which is sad.
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The current revive system allows for players to make mistakes but has a limit to the leniancy the game will provide. You're essentially upset that you can't simply choose to ignore the player that died.
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1 ReplyIt’s because they want to include the less skilled players. When you’re dead and your fire team completes the raid without you it feels like you were left out. When a blueberry completes the raid and is alive he will have a better experience and probably play more.
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Edited by Maui_Kamapuaa: 9/15/2019 8:45:39 PMAgree a couple people dying to say oh let’s just wipe and start over it’s not the people that raid a lot it’s trying to get other people through the raid that haven’t raided much you want to help them get through and show them how much fun it is they also get depressed and they feel like they’re the ones ruining the raid and often back out feeling worse about the game Bungie needs to open their eyes to this Take it out for base leave it in for the challenge/hard modes
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It's a good thing that this will never happen.
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I raided a lot in d1. I learned a lot from watching through other players when I died. I also loved being congratulated by those watching through me when I was kicking ass with a few down. It's not important to the encounter, but it was why I kept playing them. They were fun. Since revive tokens, not so much.
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1 ReplyI doubt we will ever go back to D1 hard mode. I’m not really a fan of the D2 system as it started or evolved into. I agree that the “hero moments” feel less common and some of that is raid design of the mechanics and also the token system where your focused on the revive more instead of the mechanics. The forced wipe mechanic seems over reaching and stifling to the “hero moment” and removes player choice from all raid scenarios; let the fire team decide to push on or wipe. Again, I don’t think Bungie feels any pressure to change it but maybe in the future we can compromise. On a players death there is a time window in which they can be revived but if that timer expires they stay dead until the encounter is failed. Can that work in D2 raid design? Idk, we’ve seen the raids beaten with less than 6 members so I think heroic moments are there but just inaccessible.
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JUST DON'T DIE! GIT GUD! [spoiler]But seriously, this is an issue. I would love to go back to the D1 system of waiting 30 seconds for a revive in Normal. To the people saying that would make raids easier, tell me of an encounter in a Destiny 2 raid that would benefit from that system. Destiny 2 raids are so mechanic heavy currently that having someone down for 30 seconds puts a damper on getting the mechanics. It would (for the most part) make raids more challenging. Then for Prestige mode, remove revives entirely. Probably an easier (and more realistic) fix would be to simply remove the timer. This would allow for some hero moments when you run out of tokens but still want to finish the encounter with half the fireteam. It's almost like the timer system was meant to be a mechanic to force a wipe in case they made raids a matchmaking experience, it really serves no good purpose.[/spoiler]
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2 RepliesThe problem is that Bungie want to cater solely to the hard-core players. Whilst Activision called the shots previously and wanted to see more casual players, the token system was a compromise to appease both sides. Now that Activision has left the building, look forwards to seeing more arduous activities and less casual friendly raids ect.
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14 RepliesEdited by Corrick II: 9/15/2019 5:39:58 AMRevive tokens are the worst. Honestly one of the reasons it took me so long to start raiding again. I can point to them as an easy example of a difference in design philosophy that made D1 great and D2 frustrating. Raids can be challenging while still being fun, they don’t have to be 100% tedious or stressful.
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2 RepliesMight as well just take revives out completely. The system is such a nuisance. Some teammate gets launched into the ceiling for some reason and I've already used my token. "Who's got a revive token?" Everyboddy: "..." Everybody all at once: "Me!" Everybody rushes for the revive and fails a mechanic "Just wipe..." It's honestly better to just wipe than deal with this mess. The game sabotages you in so many ways you can't expect anything to remain consistent.
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2 RepliesAll of the “don’t die” and “git gud” posts are from the people that never played a raid in D1.
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2 RepliesCompletely agree, i loved those quick thinking adjustments and hero moments fro D1 that just dont happen anymore. And i think these unnecessary revive restrictions are the basis for why the lfg scene is so f'ing toxic. With the rev token and timer, its just faster and easier to wipe immediately after a mistake than play it through and risk wiping anyway by timer. And since newer players who dont know the raid yet will make lots of mistakes, it just ends up being a wipe fest. So people post that dumb KWTD bs because the raid heavily penalizes mistakes by forcing wipes. At least in D1 if someone messed up there was a chance to recover and still win, and they could learn. Better to remove the tokens and timers completely.
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That would require Bungie to admit they did it better in D1, and the token system is less enjoyable. We're more likely to see them double down on it and make it worse somehow. Bungie does no wrong!
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Couldn't this all be solved with a "normal" and "heroic" version? Break down the revive issue within this framework any way you want with the goal of getting people into the raid on normal and then rewarding heroic with outstanding gear (please, no shaders!).
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9 Replies[quote]It really needs to change. I’d say one of the underlying issues in Raids is that there aren’t as many hero moments any more because every time there’s an opportunity for a fireteam to 2 man the remainder of the encounter they get wiped because of the timer. Go back to the old system or at least just remove the wipe timer. Edit: All the "Get Good" and "Don't Die" posts obviously completely missed the point of this post, because if they had taken a second to read and understand they would have realized I'm calling for Bungie to stop force wiping an entire team because of a slip up and to let the remaining fireteam make the call whether to wipe or try and clutch.[/quote] No, you need to learn what raiding is. One slip up in a crucial situation should lead to a wipe. Its the only way for people to learn not to screw up mechanics. "Hero" moments are very rare in raids, as they should be. Raids are GROUP activities not a single player carring everyone. I personally don't like the wipe timer and instead the enrage timers should be wiping us if you have more than 2 deaths because each time you die you get a damage down debuff or something.
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2 RepliesHow about this d1 system for normal mode only and token system for challenge mode
