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7/15/2019 8:18:54 PM
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I think your logic here is a bit off.
[quote]What your asking is for Bungie to make things more attainable for the 10 hour guy, and again, I understand why you say that.[/quote]
Not really. In nearly every post that compares "hardcore" and "casual" players, what people are really asking for is return on time invested. THAT is what keeps both types of players playing. Being rewarded appropriately for the time put into a given activity.
Consider that the 40hr a week guy is going to get more loot regardless. They will, by virtue of playing more, get more/better rewards for the amount of time they invest.
The 10hr a week guy will never see a portion of the content. And overall, the likelihood of them farming up the perfect rolls on the gear they get is limited.
And that, in and of itself is how things should be. More time, greater reward.
But the base reward, needs to match the time invested. For ALL players. So the complaint is not one of making something "easier". The complaint is one of making things rewarding. And in this case, SOME players don't feel that the rewards match the time it takes to complete the activity.
This is a common practice with Bungie. They make a change to add "impact", based on how easy it is for the "hardcore" people farm a given activity.
Problem is that they are basing these things on players who will make the "impact" trivial with their ability to farm endlessly.
For the average player WAY too many activities FEEL unrewarding. That is a design problem, not a player problem.
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Always well written. Thank you . Hope all is well
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Respectfully, you're argument is based on rewording what I wrote with generalities that don't actually mean anything. For example, you said I was wrong in stating that players want loot to be more obtainable, and that, "what people are really asking for is return on time invested". What does that mean though? Without context, that's just a general statements that lacks any solution. The "return on time invested" that players are seeking is through piles of loot, that's pretty obvious. They say Menagerie is too long for one piece of gear given the RNG of the perks, and as an answer are asking for more chests at the end (which is a fancy way of saying we want more loot). So, back to square one: Players want more loot, because it'll give them better access to good rolls. I'm a player, I get that. I want piles of loot too. With that said, even I acknowledge that I'm much less inclined to play something once I get what I want, and I never said the system was perfect. If you look at the title, I say its "fine", not awesome or amazing or wonderfully designed. There's a lot of room for improvement. One last note, and I add this for the sake of discussion--In the post, I posed two questions that nobody has answered for me: "If Bungie builds everything so its attainable easily for the 10 hour a week guy, what is the 40 hour player going to do with their time?", and "Will Menagerie be worth it after you get that gear?". You seem like you've thought about this a lot, and have a strong opinion, but none of your comment actually touched on the points I was making, which have less to do with the loot system and more to do with people saying Menagerie is a "worthless" mode. What are your responses to these questions?
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I think your questions are being answered in our discussion. Bungie should not be designing for the 40 hour a week guy. Why? Because that is an unrealistic level of content to maintain. This is a game, not a job. 40hr's a week, or even 20 hours a week is not the "norm" in any game. I would say that I am a pretty average player. And given the opportunity I would play 2-3 hours a day. But even that is more than most people could reasonably play. So the 10 hour a week guy is much closer to average than the 40hr a week guy. Meaning the game should be set up to have most, not all, things attainable somewhere between the two. The people who blow through content, that's on them, their reward is having much more opportunity at specific loot, or multiple drops. But you don't balance content for that user, they are the fringe. The people who play a couple of hours a week? Again, you don't balance on that either, otherwise the game is way to easy, and you get D2 vanilla, where everything is obtained by the majority of players within a month of release. No game has enough content to support that kind of system. And to your second point. Content MUST have a life cycle. There needs to be a reasonable end point so that people can move on to other things. So Menagerie should lose it's initial luster once you get the gear you want, with the goal being that there is new content to fill that void when you are done. But the ability to be "done" needs to be somewhere reasonable. That is what I mean by return on investment.
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Thank you for the response!! I appreciate the good discussion with a non-toxic player, and I'm truly not out here attacking anyone. As I stated in my recent edit to the post, I am not here to hate on the loot system--I would be okay with them allowing multiple drops, although I think it is kinda crazy to ask for the amount of loot you get from a raid in like 15 minutes of work. My favorite idea is the one where you unlock a chest for each encounter you complete after the lamp-lighting, and get one from the boss. I think heroic could be the same, maybe guarantee a sword drop if you beat every encounter. I understand your answer to the first question, at least to a degree. My only counter is that Destiny has always been a hardcore game (with the exception of Vanilla D2), and this is pretty well known. I don't think you can pick up a grindy game like this, and then ask for it to be toned down to fit your tastes, ya know? That's just not what Destiny is...its like if you asked a metal band to soften up their music cuz you don't like metal--it may be the right business move for them, but they don't need to change what they are at their roots. To the second point, I agree as well. However, this kind of issue always stems from the community not getting what they want right away, and somewhat contradicts what you said about the amount of content. You said that maintaining content for a 40-hour a week player is unreasonable, which is true. However, if they design content so that everyone can get everything in less than half of a season (which is what players want with Menagerie), then they're killing content too early. There's no reason it shouldn't take most of the season for a more casual player to get all the rewards they want, so long as there is a guaranteed way for them to get what they need in the end. This comes with a lot of other underlying problems that are the root of Menagerie's troubles right now.
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I think Destiny has always had an identity problem. And the loot system has always been flawed. So let's consider that there has never truly been a "normal" in regards to loot vs grind. The "grind" is not so crazy in Destiny that it is central to the loot issue. Sure some people don't like the grind, but IMO, that is not really the issue. The issue is, and will always be compounded RNG in ADDITION to the grind. For a lot of people, the chance of getting a drop is part of the fun. The ability to farm for drops, and thus farm for rolls(at the same time). That is what made strikes in D1 fun. Getting that Grasp of Malok, seeing the perks, then making a choice as to whether or not you wanted to go for a better one. All at 10-20 minutes a pop, depending on your team and your power. And take note of that. In D1 it was possible to overpower activities. That was part of the reward of being in endgame. D2 has this to some extent, but not so much as to ever truly feel OP. But that is another discussion. Now consider something like EP. Something that over a year after release, still takes multiple people to complete. Even knowing all of the mechanics. Regardless of basically pushing past the chances of failing(at least the first 5 waves). It still takes time. It still has a grind element. The drops, as in obtaining them, are still RNG. But that is the ONLY RNG with EP. Whether or not the boss drops the gear. If you farm the keys, you get your armor. The perks are fixed. You grind the boss, you will eventually get a drop. The perks are fixed. So you KNOW what you are getting. You KNOW that your time will be rewarded. Imagine if the perks on the EP gear were RNG? With the same chances to even get a drop at all? How many months did people farm for one drop? You think they would be happy if they got an EP shotty with Pulse Monitor? Sniper with Threat Detector? So it is not really about the grind. It's about the rewards for that grind. So now consider Menagerie. Can take a little time. Or take a lot of time. Especially for the average player. So yes, you can pick what you are going to get. But the perks are still RNG. Which is why people were happy with 3 chances. They still had to have the runes. They still had to complete the activity. And for some, they felt that the time it takes, warranted more than one chance at the roll they wanted. I have seen suggestions that performance should dictate how many chests, or a chance at a curated roll. That is a good balance IMO. Make the reward based on "skill", not RNG, or on the amount of time played. To the second point. Consider that, as you mentioned, the intended progress path for content is that an average player, playing an average amount of time, should be able to get what they want(probably not every last thing), in a season. This is pretty much how I play. I focus on the things that are of most interest to me, and I start grinding(Vanguard GL right now). I personally really enjoyed menagerie, but I have only done it a few times as right now, the gear is not something that I feel like chasing. And personally, I am so used to limited loot, one chest vs three is not something I really worried about. But that EP shotgun? I certainly would have been miffed had I ground it out for that month, solo, and gotten a crappy roll. So for me, my question to hardcore players is always the same. How would a change like this, 3 chests vs 1. Or masterwork cores being only used for masterworks, really impact them. The benefits to the "average" player are obvious. But how do these things affect people with enough time to trivialize any amount of content? The people who can run Menagerie 15 times in a day? Or who can play so much as to have hundreds if not thousands of cores? Does making the baseline for loot and materials somewhere in the middle really affect their ability to "grind"? I think the answer is no. Because they are going to grind and play as much as possible regardless. So eventually, any amount of grind will be trivial. But the amount of return on investment for average players? I think that is what is most notable when an issue like this arises. Those players feel these things the most. And it could be argued that regardless of intent. Those are the core players of a game like Destiny. The people who do partake in the whole season. Who don't just burn through whatever is put in their path.
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We are all Guardians here, I will take a look at your response and continue the discussion as I can. Just wanted to respond briefly with good vibes.
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No problem! Its good to have a life outside of the game xD I find civil discussion to be much more effective than rage-fueled arguments when it comes to making progress, and its good for both sides. You've already started to change my perspective, and that isn't the case with any post based on anger.
