[b]A Protest of Subclass Sunsetting[/b]
Hello.
A few hours ago, Polygon posted an article detailing some changes that Luke Smith wanted to see implemented with the old Light-based subclasses. Essentially, he wants to bring them into a customization system similar to what we see with the Stasis subclasses. Not a bad plan on paper.
Of course, if I agreed with everything he said, I wouldn't be writing this.
The real concerning part of the article was when Smith talked of "Honing an identity" within classes and subclasses. What he means by this is that classes like Voidwalker would get rid of Nova Warp because it isn't exactly what Smith refers to as "IP-defining". No one uses it, so by that logic there is no reason to keep it around.
[i]THIS IS REALLY, REALLY BAD.
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This subclasses-sunsetting as certain content creators have called it is extremely concerning. Unlike weapon and armor sunsetting, which while unpopular wasn't unprecedented, this move is going to end up being both.
Weapon sunsetting was necessary in order to avoid power creep and to make new loot actually matter. I don't think that Bungie executed on this perfectly, but sunsetting did the job it was supposed to do.
I personally think armor sunsetting is frivolous and frankly unnecessary, but with the addition of Transmog coming soon, its something that the playerbase will tolerate and accept, albeit not exactly with love.
However, sunsetting supers and abilities achieves nothing. There are two main reasons that Smith gives: First, a need to simplify the subclass trees or ease of use. Second, is a need for specialization between classes. Both of these reasons are illogical and frankly stupid.
First, if there's the need to prune subclasses, which to that point I say: "Why?". The main reason to switch the Light subclasses over to this new system is to increase customization for the player. By taking away options, you take away opportunities for said customization.
My protest of the second point ties into the first. Smith wants to create a "class jealousy" between classes through specialization, and in doing so basically force people to use different characters for different play styles. This is stupid. Players, both casual and hardcore, don't want to have to use multiple different characters to achieve what one character can do in theory. I love the fact that my Titan can use the same subclass to either create a buffing and protecting Ward of Dawn or have massive mob clear through Sentinel Shield. By pruning away at this subclasses and forcing specialization, Smith and Bungie would actively be destroying the customization that they want to foster so badly.
I am an undergraduate studying economics, and while they are wide gaps between that and game design, there are some basic concepts that carry over. I can say while studying economics that the best way to get people to invest is to put money in their pockets. A disposable income is what fuels consumption and economic growth. In Destiny, the best way to foster investment into the game's systems of customization is to give players more options for customization. Subclasses sunsetting will not achieve this, and in the long run hurt the game.
On one final note to Luke Smith, frankly the entire concept that he pushed in this article was offensive. As a player, it makes me angry that one would want to take away core gameplay abilities for no valid reason. But more so, to a developer, it makes me furious.
Bungie employees spent God-knows how much time developing, tuning, and coding each and every subclass and ability. Yes, things like Nova Warp, Arc Staff, and Chaos Reach are what Luke Smith might refer to as "mediocre". But instead of giving his employees a chance to fix and perfect their work, he's surrendering on their behalf, saying that instead of fixing their game, they're going to perform unneeded amputation to the game's systems. If I were a Bungie developer, I would be -blam!-ing furious at this insulting suggestion. On behalf on both the developers and the playerbase, I hope to God that this is just another one of Savathûn's tricks.
TL;DR: removing subclass options is illogical and hurts both the player and the developers.
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1 Reply
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5 RepliesI think completely differently. I will say very simply, some of the subclasses are just never used, and only the most useful ones are selected, as a result, some exotic armor just no longer makes sense to be in the game. Subclasses need to be rearranged and updated. Definitely wouldn't cry if things like golden gun three shots were eliminated ect.
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Bring back double primary system ?
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So buff fusion rifles?
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2 RepliesNo one uses nova warp because they nerfed it so damn hard 😂😂😂
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1 ReplyNot too long ago, I posted on forums that nobody read about why this game still only has three races, and three subclasses (now 4) after 6 years. Many MMO type games by now usually have far more classes and abilities, not to mention added content and expansions. Seeing this after posting that awhile back really makes my jaw drop, because the game is not even expanding classes, but actually reducing supers lol
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Biggest problem with Destiny is Smith looks at this game like a high-end rpg mmo, when micromanaging and classes are actually needed, Destiny is a low-end wanna be rpg mmo, who tried micromanagement before. D1 vets should remember the headache of trying to put a team together when you need certain people to run certain classes and subclasses without any in game way of communicating, that killed Destiny for alot of my clan back year one, before classes even changed. Not a good idea.
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Totally agreed on all your points. IF anything, Bungie should expand each sub-class to allow us to customize. I think it is a good idea to make each super subclass have the same customization settings with its own set of abilities as the Stasis class, but sunsetting old supers....very bad idea. Tis a Foolish Remedy for trying to make the game even more simplified than it already is.
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Edited by EnderPlayz_5: 12/18/2020 8:23:08 AMI agree 100%. Removing these subclasses are bad. Despite only talking about identity and ditching a super like nova warp just because it’s only used in PvP does not make much sense. Not to mention that I don’t completely stick with one subclass tree for a long time. For example- I use a well of radiance if my teammates need to have sustained dps without being killed. I use dawn blade if I feel we don’t need a rift and just need to rain down hell on combatants. Using ward of dawn if I feel that the activity we’re about start has tons of adds and we need a buff to damage and a spot in which we can heal if we’re low on health. Removing these would make a negative impact by not giving us freedom to choose which tree we need in a respective situation. Stasis on the other hand is a complete matter altogether. We don’t needs additional supers in that because the fragments and aspects make a much larger impact if you use, let’s say a hunter with glacier grenades, whisper of shards and shatterdrive, you can drop a glacier grenade, which freezes a few of your enemies, then goin mid air, activating shatterdrive, which in turn disposes of them all. The normal subclasses don’t have this much versatility, which means removing their supers would create a negative impact rather than a positive one. Although if they decide to merge the supers, it may or may not be good. Or if you feel destiny should be a diverse game which you can customise your playstyle, add another tree
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“Simply subclass trees”. I hope I read that right because right now the original three supers are as simplified as it gets. And removing supers because “no one uses them”? I still see nova warp used a good bit in pvp and for swarm add clearing in pve, and let’s not forget about handheld supernova and all the use it gets. Supers are fine as they are right now, this entire idea of removing them is stupid.
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I read that interview. Seemed like ge was a little out of touch. There's a [i]phenomenon[/i] where players dont care about legendary items because of sunsetting. Uhhhh......yeah no shit
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2 RepliesWTF is Luke Smith?
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Oh [REDACTED]! Please put this PEON in his place with the RAW FACTS and LOGIC that you so abundantly (and skillfully) wield. He’s peddling FALSEHOODS about the nature of sun setting, and a warrior such as yourself has the duty, NAY, the honor to refute him in the court of public opinion. I hope you hear my plea, my lord and savior of the truth!
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4 RepliesI actually think ditching some subclasses would be fine. Play on my titan and of the light subclasses, bubble, toptree or middle tree havoc, and top tree hammers. They could easily consolidate them similar to how d1 was. You have your main super and then strands which decide what it does( death from above, more orbs when taking damage or as a warlock lance or shatter etc etc)
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3 RepliesIt’s really not as bad as everyone makes it seem... he said there’s “no room on the development map” right now to make those changes. That means at the very worst, they’re happening around lightfall. It’s not like they’re doing it now, and on top of that, the article catastrophized his words so many times and made it sound so much worse than it was
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5 Replies1. This is why devs don’t want to talk to us. 2. This is why people like the idea of change and newness, but lose it in the face of the reality of it. If nothing changes? Nothing changes. This game is not built in a way where it can just keep stacking stuff on top of more stuff. If we’re going to wind up playing this game for six years, stuff needs to be pruned away. If you want to see what happens when you don’t? Look at Cyberpunk 2077 on console. The game onertaxes the last gen machines and runs so poorly that it’s almost unplayable. That is where this game was headed.
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2 RepliesI’m as big a skeptic of Bungies recent choices as anybody. But even I admit that what Luke Smith said in the article is as ambiguous as it gets. It sounds to me as though he was merely pondering out loud about potential changes in the most conceptual way. It’s not as if next season is going to see numerous subclass supers removed. Community uproar about this, at this point in time, is ludicrous. The fact of the matter is, the light subclasses [i]are[/i] in desperate need of revitalisation and its bizarre to have such depth of customisation in one single subclass while the other 3 still utilise a 4 year old system which was barebones and overly-limiting even when it was released, nevermind now. Anyway, sounds to me like these changes, if they ever even come to fruition, are a long, long way off. He simply “mused” that nova warp is a subclass tree that sees very niche usage and is an [i]example[/i] of something that they’d look at fundamentally reworking and as it is now, is an example of what they’d get rid of if they had to choose. Let’s be honest too, he’s not exactly wrong. Look, I’m no fan of Luke Smith, not in any way whatsoever. I think he’s had a net detrimental effect on the franchise, but the backlash he’s facing over this I think is severely disproportional to what he [i]actually[/i] said.
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Another article went up today where he discussed weapon sunsetting, likening it to buying milk and how he sees sunsetting causing the problem of people thinking weapons are DOA because of their time limit infusion cap. Still not thinking about removing sunsetting though...
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Simplify the subclass tree? They already made it subclasses for mouth breathers in D2. Same thing with Mass Effect, great system with the first then dumb it down for a bonehead mass audience in the second one
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I still don't think sunsetting weapons was needed. If Bungie was afraid new loot wouldn't matter enough then it would have been their job to make new loot interesting enough. And at the same time keep old loot intact for the people who wanted to keep using it. The same argument applies to sunsetting supers. Its Bungie's job to properly implement the customization system with the light subclasses and buff the weaker supers to remain viable. Player choice should be at the top of Bungie's list. Its the most important thing in the game. If a player wants to play with Nova Warp all the time then its Bungie's job to ensure this super stays viable. And if the same person wants to run around shooting things with their Year One, Season One weapon then its Bungie's job to ensure it stays viable. A seemingly easy workaround with sunsetting supers lies within Stasis Aspects and Fragments and how they work. They could easily change Void Walker in a way that it initially does Nova Bomb on super but introduce an Aspect or Fragment that changes said super to Nova Warp if you have this Aspect or Fragment slotted. To me that seems like an easy fix for all supers and doesn't require the removal of supers. Also i enjoyed your comparison between game development and economics. I totally agree that more players would invest in the game if there was more in the game. People are already leaving because so many things were removed and yet they something think sunsetting supers is a good thing. It honestly boggles the mind.
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I think the plan is to restructure the old supers to resemble stasis and give the player a customized super. That said, I'm sure they are going to make us grind for perks again
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5 RepliesI'm copying and pasting this on posts related to this topic. I had a brainstorm and I wanted to pass it around. Ignoring all the jazz about Luke, I just wanted to give an idea that could/should be on the table, and with the customization of our light subclasses coming up, this provides a perfect opportunity to do so. Replicate top tree sentinel titan for all other subclasses. Press for sentinel shield, hold for ward of dawn. It's been in the game since the launch of D2, and implementing this would give every other subclass a great deal of diversity in their playstyle. Think about it. When was the last time you saw chaos reach? I saw it a month ago in the crucible, and I started laughing because it hasn't been relevant since its boss melting days at the Halloween event in 2018. Now imagine that warlock running through a strike and clearing a trash mob in a room with storm trance, to then go on and chaos reach the boss at the end. It sounds no different than me, a titan main, doing the same thing with my sentinel shield. This is why I never switch from sentinel because I have options, and it can work with literally every other subclass out there provided they get a much-needed buff. Supers need to feel like supers and shouldn't be getting outclassed by weapons in terms of damage output. Why is a sword or a sniper rifle a more optimal form of DPS than a concentrated blast of lightning? Anyways, changing it this way would certainly bring a new dynamic into the game for both PvP and especially PvE as we often find ourselves in different situations in different parts of the activity. Obviously, some supers might have to get reworked, but that's ok (I'm looking at you, sunbreaker). Then there is the matter of deciding which to tie to lock and which to hold. I think this should be based on the reaction times of supers. Obviously, somethings should be tied to aspects or maybe exotics that already exist. I'm not a game dev, so don't criticize me too hard. Here are my thoughts: Sentinel: Press for sentinel shield, hold for ward of dawn. Tie the banner shield into aspects or even it into the Ursa gauntlets themselves to free up an aspect slot for something else. I don't see a situation where I would run a banner shield and not Ursa and vice versa. Sunbreaker: Press for the hammer of sol, hold for the big hammer. I think the hammer needs a new purpose. Make it a boss killing super with the spin used for DPS and the heavy attack to stagger bosses. It's a big freaking hammer, and it should act like one. Imagine hitting the boss with a melting point, then popping the big hammer and swing for DPS while staggering him with a big swing every once in a while. Nothing is more frustrating than trying to damage the boss and he's constantly tanking everything you throw at him and a boss stagger feature would possibly incentivize players to use sunbreaker in high-end activities. Striker: press for the fist of havoc, hold for thunder crash. Top and bottom tree perks tied to aspects. Gunslinger: Press for blade barrage, hold for GG. Top and bottom tree perks tied to aspects. Arcstrider: I believe the deflection spin should be intrinsic to the entire super. The super tied to holding the buttons should do one of two things: A) create a new super, or B) Bring back blade dancer and reinvent it for a new purpose. Obviously, both supers do the same thing, so maybe the blade dancer can throw knives similar to how the hammer or sol vs. the big hammer work. Then if we go that route, maybe make the knives do something. Something like replicate anarchy then retain its melee ability for a short while? I don't play hunter, but maybe this could be a thing. Void hunter: Press for tether, hold for spectral, Top and bottom tree perks tied to aspects. Sunwalker: Press for dawnblade, hold for well. Top and bottom tree perks tied to aspects. Voidwalker: Press for Nova bomb, hold for nova warp. Top and bottom tree perks tied to aspects. Darth Sidious (Sorry, forgot the name), press for stormtrance, hold for chaos reach, Top and bottom tree perks tied to aspects.
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[quote]I am an undergraduate studying economics, and while they are wide gaps between that and game design, there are some basic concepts that carry over. I can say while studying economics that the best way to get people to invest is to put money in their pockets. A disposable income is what fuels consumption and economic growth. In Destiny, the best way to foster investment into the game's systems of customization is to give players more options for customization. Subclasses sunsetting will not achieve this, and in the long run hurt the game.[/quote] I think that you're not considering an important caveat to the discussion here: if you want people to invest, it is not simply enough to put money in their pockets, that money needs to also have value. Otherwise I could just flood the economy with freshly printed dollar bills to get more money into everyone's pockets no? But that plan is doomed to fail unless I can maintain the value of the dollar as I print new dollar bills, otherwise I'm just hurting everyone through inflation. Both economics and game design is more nuanced than that, but you'd have to agree with me that just as "more money!" is not strictly better than "less money!" because of inflation, "more customization!" is not strictly better than "less customization!" because the only thing that ultimately matters is the value that the customization creates. So really focusing on the "number of options" angles weakens the focus your overarching argument, which I think is best summed up by: [quote]Players, both casual and hardcore, don't want to have to use multiple different characters to achieve what one character can do in theory. I love the fact that my Titan can use the same subclass to either create a buffing and protecting Ward of Dawn or have massive mob clear through Sentinel Shield.[/quote] I think that's a perfectly valid perspective to have, and I wanted to ask you a few follow up questions to further explore this: > Your Titan can use the same subclass to either create a buffing and protecting Ward of Dawn or have massive mob clear through Sentinel Shield, but it can't do both at the same time and has to choose between the two. How then do you deal with: A) A scenario where you need do massive mob clear when you have Ward of Dawn equipped B) A scenario where you need to do buffing and protecting when you have Sentinel Shield equipped
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1 ReplyKnowing Bungie, they'd announce Nova Warp sunsetting for next season but let you grind for an updated Nova Warp this season before the one you have is sunset yet. Bad...people.
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Mr Wrong Direction at his finest....
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7 RepliesI've disliked many Bungie decisions in the past, I've liked some too. But if they go as far as to sunset a single super, no matter the class, I'm dropping that ~65 GB off my console quicker than you can say "Fenchurch".