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Edited by inShane2k11:
5/11/2020 9:10:52 AM
57
Sunsetting Weapons: What is the point? What would be better?
[b]TL;DR[/b] I think sunsetting is a bad idea and will have a generally negative affect on the player base. Bungie should instead look at how they do random rolls, and continue to push for creative new perks/attachments and perk combos.
((Edit: Since I am seeing waaay too many people say it in the comments, this does [u]NOT[/u] mean power creep. An example for an interesting new perk idea I stated below [i](among many other good suggestions)[/i] is to reuse things like hive/taken armaments for our weapons, give something small like a 10% flat damage buff to certain combatants, that way we get an alternative damage perk to things like rampage and kill clip. This idea alone could get them 5+ seasons worth of new weapon rolls just by featuring a given combatant each season like they already do. Shrapnel rounds-Fallen, Exploding rounds-Hive, Bio rounds-Vex, Armor Pierce rounds-Cabal, Light Infused rounds-Taken. . .I'm sure someone can come up with better names, but Bungie needs to get better at tapping into their player base for ideas.))
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When I first heard about the sunsetting, I thought "Oh yeah, this will help Bungie keep things from bloating.". . .but the more I thought about it this week. . .the more I realized this is trending just like Armor 2.0.
Instead of getting players to clear out their vaults, more likely they will keep things that are enjoyable to play with (general activities) to compare with new seasonal weapons (pinnacle activities). Also, this is just one more way that Bungie is trying to tell us which gear we should use, just like artifact mods.
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Why should I have to get rid of the weapon I've racked up tens of thousands of kills on, only to get a "new" weapon that is really just a re-skin of what I had been using all along? Bungie has a lot better options here. . .either:
-design better looking weapons/ornaments that get me to switch out the old one [i]of my own accord[/i]. (nothing wrong with a good re-skin, Horror Story is still one of my faves)
-give better base stats (even just the +5/-5 varying different stats they already do is enough to create interesting differences within an archetype)
or the [b]best options[/b]
-create interesting new perks [i](this is what has always made pinnacles/exotics worth the grind)[/i]
-create unique perk/attachment combinations [u][i][b](this right here is why I think there is way too much randomization with current weapon rolls; should be 3-4 perks/attachments per column instead of 6-10. devs gotta leave room for themselves to create the unique combos like in D1)[/b][/i][/u]
Bungie can't get lazy here, because sunsetting weapons is like telling players "Your investment means nothing, now go grind for a new set of gear again!" [b]If there is one way to drive away the player base in an investment game, it is deliberately devaluing player investment.[/b]
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[u][b]Final Thoughts [i](this is for Bungie specifically)[/i]:[/b][/u] Do not sunset weapons. [b]Period[/b]. Stop telling players what gear we can and can't use. It is your job to make the new content enticing. [i]Convince[/i] us to chase after the new gear, don't [i]force[/i] us to do it. Pinnacle gear should give pinnacle perks and buffs, but seasonal gear should let us play the way we want to [i](I'm getting real sick of running the same unstoppable/overload/anti-barrier load-out all season long, just open it up to all weapons already)[/i]. Full transmog for armor is a step in the right direction, but you can't simultaneously be taking a step back with weapons.
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If you made it to the end, thanks for taking the time to read it all! Let me know in the comments what you think of my analysis of the situation and/or what other suggestions you might have to improve the weapons system. Trying to be constructive here, so don't just post your criticism and leave.
English
#destiny2
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2 RepliesIts insane, theres hundreds of items from year 1 that still can't be acquired with random rolls... Hundreds, just sitting there taking up game space... yet a lack of rewards in every direction, like Strikes and Crucible, two huge facets of the game that were expected to play. If I could get a New City with a new perk set, I'd be playing right now... If I could get a Scathelock with a new perk set, I'd be playing right now... If I could get a ... You get the point. Bungie says one thing but demonstrates another. I mean, they said we cant have Factions yet the Faction vendors are still physically in the game and since the small batch release of faction weapons this season, apparently so are all the weapons and armor... Lol
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Thanks everyone who participated in this conversation! It helped me make a realization about what is the real decision Bungie must make [i](priority of activities: casual vs. pinnacle)[/i]. You can check that post out [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/256034197?sort=0&page=0]here[/url]. If you liked this post, then I would appreciate you guys checking it out and upvoting if you can, don't want this issue to just get swept under the rug. Thanks again!
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1 ReplyThe REAL point in my opinion is they can get rid of pain point guns like the old pinnacles without singling them out.
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2 RepliesI don't know why people think it's necessary to sunset gear in an FPS game, it's not like warcraft where gear is essentially just stats. Guns in game have a feel to them, and telling people that their favourite guns to use are no longer viable in endgame activities is a bad idea. They don't have to keep making weapons stronger, they just need to understand their playerbase and what they like. Most peoples god roll guns consist of a reload perk and a damage perk, I know bungie want to move away from this but clearly players don't. So don't move away from it, embrace it. Let every weapon in the game roll ANY perk that is currently in game. Start making new gun models and not just reskins, and let them roll the perks people want rather than the perks bungie want it to have. You could even extend this to the blue weapons nobody cares about, give them random rolls and people might even start using them. Giving players more options will drive player engagement, restricting their choices might make for an easier life for the devs but will alienate players and drive them away.
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7 RepliesThe only way to remove weapon power creep is to completely remove Power and stats from gear. Their first mistake was making Destiny a purely loot-driven game, as in, putting the RPG in the loot instead of the Guardian. The entire plot of the game surrounds the concept that these legendary, god-killing immortals borne from the energy of a once-dead machine deity have their own innate power, but none of that is translated into the player. Instead, our power is entirely poured into our weapons and armor, giving off the wrong impression that our Guardians would be weak without them. This makes no sense plot-wise and it causes problems gameplay-wise, which is why we should: - Move stats to the Guardian - Return to a Character Level System with a post-Level Cap point system to determine player class, abilities, damage output, cooldowns and the like - Have all gear only come with rolls that boost stats based on rarity (number of boosts and how high those boosts are), as well as Perks that are not tied to damage increases but give weapons unique benefits that can alter fire rates, reload speeds, etc - Give Crucible its own separate space from Vanguard, with a basic rotating pool of PvP weapons, PvE armor perks disabled, Classes and Class Abilities disabled and an absolute focus on traditional, fast-paced combat to try and bring back the glory days of Halo multiplayer. It's just a starting block of an idea, but it will be INFINITELY better than having entire sets of armor and weaponry locked away because the dev team apparently have no time to balance the game and make new content. With these changes, the amount they need to balance is reduced by one third. Crucible won't have another Hard Light situation and Vanguard will no longer be marred by PvP's need for balance.
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I agree. This is why I stopped playing. It was the line that was crossed and I will not play until they scrap this idea. They have proven that they think powerful and interesting guns are too hard to balance and cosmetic changes aren't enough to convince players not to use new guns so they retire or nerf old guns to make the new ones more viable. That is not fun. I chase guns and God rolls to gain an advantage and to me that is the point of destiny. You remove guns you remove my motivation to play bc it becomes a pointless grind with zero payoff.
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In D1 they capped Fatebringer. Then made you go grind that stupid strike in hopes that you'd get a random rolled Imago Loop. It's goal post moving. And i never did get an imago loop, nope. Just annoyed
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Bungie been doing it ever since first dlc for D1, nothing new here. Just another tactic to get players grind for the same weapon for the thousand time over and over again when they reintroduce it.
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I stopped playing as soon as they announced sunsetting. Disrespect my time and I'll stop playing and paying.
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Edited by Ricochet 049: 5/12/2020 12:40:49 AMThey could just stop tasing the light level. And instead add new playable content, like dungeons strikes and raids. And you don’t actually get stronger for raising light level, you just prevent yourself from being passively nerfed.
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[quote][b]TL;DR[/b] I think sunsetting is a bad idea and will have a generally negative affect on the player base. Bungie should instead look at how they do random rolls, and continue to push for creative new perks/attachments and perk combos.[/quote] I can 100% get behind this and I do think that having weapons retire in this stage of the game(year 3 about to go into year 4) is a bad play. The problem currently (just my personal opinion please be nice) Bungie waited to long to do something like this for D2. We had it in D1 when the taken king came around and you know I didn't really think to negatively or positively about it I was just kind of felt neutral on it. I was just more excited about something new was being brought into the destiny world.
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8 RepliesSunsetting weapons is the only way to stop power creep. Get over it, it's happening and it's a good thing. And I have over 25,000 kills with a Subtle Calamity and over 20,000 kills with at least 3 other weapons. So keep that in mind before you start thinking I don't have time invested in my weapons also. And they have been creating new perks tgat are actually pretty good. You would know that if you had started trying different weapons when it was announced that weapons were being sunsetted.
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3 RepliesIts not all guns only up till Forsaken all guns before that are getting retired.
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Edited by NerdslayerNo1: 5/12/2020 5:15:00 AMthe point: To "move the goal posts." Sunsetting gear is Bungie trying to get you to redo what you've already done again, for money (the cost of the dlc/season pass). Rather than keep you playing with new exotics, new weapons, new crucible map, new crucible modes, just adding new story content to play they want you to do what you already did, find gear. For some people that is fun. As someone that is more into the shooter part than the looter part i don't get joy in monotonous grind. I spent two hours yesterday playing a strike for a quickdraw mindbenders. Still no dice. But i'd rather just had the gun and played crucible. And i've been grinding that stupid strike whenever it comes out with no luck on a quickdraw drop. See what they want you to do is chase gear for the sake of chasing it. Me i'm the sort that unlocks a gun in MW2 and doesn't prestige cause he doesn't want to lose what he's unlocked. Because the playing of the multiplayer was what i like not not the tedium of leveling. Destiny is the same. I play mostly crucible. Like in D1. I like the actual playing of the pvp. I fricken hated rerunning strikes for two weeks just to get one Hopscotch Pilgrim to drop so i could finally go do what i'd rather be doing.
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There's a limit on how good they can make Legendary weapons through perk combos. At a certain point nothing will top a specific combination, or the power obtained through said combination would trivialize content and kill any means to try another roll. (Outlaw+Kill Clip does this already to an extent) So what happens then?
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Edited by Darth Lunchbox: 5/11/2020 7:05:48 PMMy biggest problem with it is that the newer weapons and armor they have been bringing out are not any better or even as good as the older weapons and armor. I have found nothing worth replacing the weapons and armor I've been using for quite awhile now.
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10 RepliesI just dont understand what their goal is with this change other than to try and force you to obtain the new gear. People dont have a reason to chase new gear at times because it quite honestly is garbage. Seventh seraph carbine, garbage. Seventh seraph handcannon, garbage. Trials fusion, garbage. Nobody farms those weapons or plays the activities for those weapons because they SUCK, not just because there are better options already in the game. They keep creating these weapons with really cool designs but then waste them on weapon types nobody uses (because the archetypes suck) and stick them with bottom of the barrel garbage perks or really good ones mixed with garbage. And sure, people would be MORE LIKELY to farm weapons that have better stats and better perks but that isn't always the case as long as the weapon either pleases the player that uses it because of aesthetics (which is another pointless thing the team -blam!- about when people dont use them because AGAIN, the weapons still suck) or because it genuinely is a good weapon. When bungie goes from gnawing hunger to that pos arc logic, OF COURSE nobody is going to farm it. It's so bad in comparison it's basically handicapping yourself for using it. Not just because gnawing hunger is so much better, but arc logic by itself is a piece of garbage. There are blue weapons with better stats than it, that's how awful it is. I understand that the game cant easily sustain infusion forever the way it currently is, but it's so late down the line that changing it is just going to sour people's already poor opinion for this game. And it's not like theres even any guarantee the game gets better because of it, because our exotics are still going to destroy everything like they already do (and if they get sunsetted too I will legitimately quit. The fact that it's on the table is stupid enough as is) and they have NEVER had the drive to replace our gear they take away. They dont work fast enough or hard enough to give the players what they want and this change, even if the idea is correct, is just so foolish. I play this game because I can collect and use my favorite guns whenever I want to. For raids, for trials, for WHATEVER. And they want me to stop using what I like because I dont want to use arc logic even though their team "puts so much work into the guns they make?" Maybe if they put a little more effort in controlling the button they slam that randomly generated stats and perks I would, because I'm not using arc logic as it is, nor will I ever. I just won't play the game like now. I hated kings fall (the rewards, not the raid itself) because the only 2 primaries I wanted to use (the handcannon and auto) were garbage even though they looked so damn cool. Meaning, you can create as much content as you want, but I'm not going to play it over and over for nothing but zhaoli's mother clucking bane. You ruined it because of your fear of power creep, not because I wasn't enticed by the design enough to do it.
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Sunsetting + champion mods = curated loadout.
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First of all, Bungie has been sunsetting weapons and loot from day 1, through NERFS. That's normally how they dictate what you use. They are just using a different method now.
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It is necessary though. You have to bear in mind 3 things. 1. This has been peoples load out for sometimes 2+ years. Midnight Coup got REALLY boring. Recluse+MtTop is getting REALLY boring. Wendigo is boring. Its not fun anymore, when new content comes out, and youre just doing the SAME stuff, with the SAME weapon. Its not like other weapons dont exist, however those outperform so aggressively that its hard to not use them. 2. Sunsetting isnt just applicable to the "god tier" weapons. Its every armour piece, and weapon of vanilla D2. Its potentially weapons and armour of Forsaken. A lot of that stuff ISNT GOOD. You need to size down the loot pool. Noone wants a new expansion, and having their old friend Edge Transit show up. Its already a problem, when people are trying to go for things like Last Hope. 3. A lot of the stuff people are talking about sunsetting has been around for a while, in some cases all the way back to D2 launch. Its time for something new. Ive already sunsetted weapons, purely cos im bored of them. Now im running around with a Seraph sidearm with Demo+Surrounded, and Ashen Wake, and Power of Rasputin, Suppressor warmind cells ect, and any special or power i want. I couldnt do that in vanilla or Forsaken. I can only do that NOW, and i love it, its way more fun. But you cant keep that open ended build design and add new things when the old thing is still lingering
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8 out of the top 10 most popular legendary PvE weapons are still from Forsaken, its neccessary
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I'm ready for sunsetting! Never farmed a god roll back in D1, and I even raided back then. Never farmed a god roll in D2, unless Pinnacles back in Y2 count, and I don't plan on farming now. I'm tired of having the game balanced around old weaponry. This is one of the ideas I'll always side with Bungie on. They're damned if they leave your weapon in the dust because "MUH WEAPONS! PLAY MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY! POWER CREEP DOESN'T EXIST!" And they're damned if they bring gear forward because "DAMMIT BUNGIE MAKE BETTER -blam!-ING GEAR! I'VE HAD THE BEST GUN SINCE Y2! GAME'S BEEN POWER CREEPED TO HELL AND BACK!"
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Sun setting weapons allows more opportunities for making new Ever verse skins to sell you. Only reason why Bungee wants to do this. Any other reason is bullshit.
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The need to fix collections, allow us to pull any weapon, with any perks we have unlocked, reduce inventory down to 100, and call it a day. If the collection system worked as it should have from day one, then there would be no need to sunset anything. A weapon in destiny is a bunch of stats. What it looks like is irrelevant. The complexity lies, I would imagine, in the limitations posed by their design choices. x sight can't go on y gun with z perk, etc. Ultimately the need to rework the whole weapon system. Remove the perks themselves from the weapons and lean more into unique perks/traits to differentiate the top tier.
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Man, I worked real hard to get a gun that I never use....
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14 RepliesPeople never care about unique weapon rolls, all players will ever care about is whats the numerical best perks. You are just asking for power creep, or basically power being stagnant with this kind of argument.
