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Edited by Kuno_Ushinawa:
12/23/2019 10:58:10 AM
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Can we have a civil disscusion about titans in PvP?
So I've seen a lot of rants, a lot of uncouth name calling, and a lot of threats back and forth between different people and titan mains about how busted titans are in PvP. I will also point out that I have read zero posts about hunters being broken and just one post about warlocks being broken. Now I haven't been playing very long, only a few months, however in the short time I have been playing I've become very annoyed by two things:
1.) Bungies desire to force me to play PvP (Whether for exotics, PvE quests, or as is currently happening, for season pass quests)
and
2.) Titans in crucible.
Now I've asked myself why exactly titans are the worst thing (other than some god awful maps) about PvP:
Is it that they are just jerk players? Not anymore than hunters or warlocks.
Is it that they overly focus on me or another player? Not anymore than hunters or warlocks.
Do they message me and talk shit? Nope.
Why were the funnest matches I've had in pvp made up of only hunters and warlocks?
Why is it that so many streamers agree that titans are the worst part of PvP?
Why is it that when I run into a titan in crucible the only thing that goes through my head is: "I'm f***ed, this is bs"?
If I had this reaction to all three classes then that would mean I'm just shit at crucible. So what is it then?
Is it that they have one hit melee? Is it that their supers have AoE? Is it that they take more to kill? Why are titans so seemingly broken?
In almost every match I can figure out which people are playing titans, usually when they kill me.... in one hit, with their regular melee. But at the end of each match I can find their names and every time (with only a few deviations) they are the players with the best KtD ratio. So just by the endgame results we can see data that points to titans being unbalanced. But again which thing makes them unbalanced?
Well let's look at AoE, both solar and arc are very AoE heavy and seem to be crucible favorites. The solar class is healed by kills with it's super... and that's what makes that broken. A solar titan can kill a fire team easily with their solar super and not loose any health because of this (and yes the warlocks ring of light is pretty broken as well). I've had a single solar class titan sit at one end of a hallway and lock my whole entire fireteam in a room, we couldn't deal damage fast enough to kill him. That's pretty bad design. The arc just has a large AoE meaning you can't run away and the titan doesn't even have to have good aim.
Now do I think every aspect of titans need to be nerfed? Nope.
Do I think titans should be banned from PvP? Nope.
Do I think PvP would be better without supers? Absolutely.
Do I think that will happen? Absolutely not.
I think reducing (slightly) the healing of solar titans (and warlocks ring of light) and the AoE range of titan arc super would do wonders for the health of PvP, and this reduction should only be in pvp. While one hit melee is super annoying I don't think it's the problem, and it makes sense that titans are a bit tankier than hunters and warlocks. I think it's just having a trifecta on one class that made them seem so broken.
Now I'm sure some of titan mains are going to start slinging insults and saying this is all bs and titans are fine. But that was not the intent I just want to see this game be more fun for everyone, and see if others have better suggestions for this conundrum.
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If you want to have a civil discussion at least own one of each characters and have some decent play time on it.
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4 RepliesI know other people have already commented but since you are new I won't tear you apart. A lot of people will see things in Destiny and assume that it's just a fact when in reality it's usually not true and a lot of the things you spoke about...follows this path. #1: No regular melee can one shot without a very specific exotic or perk on a weapon such as one two punch or unless they have something that allows them to stack their damage. A titan can one shot you with their charged melee called shoulder charge, hammer strike and shield bash, but none of those 3 can be instantly used from a stand still and require the Sprint button to be held for about 1-1.5 seconds before it activates. It's a good ability for catching people off guard, but a good shotgun shot, fusion, or side arm and smg will put you down if you just try bum rushing someone. #2: Sunbreaker is the name of the solar tree and it happens to be my favorite and most used skill tree as the explosions are fun. If you saw a titan healing in their super, you likely saw a bottom tree sunbreaker. Bottom tree sunbreaker trades blast radius for those lingering damage sun spots and they have a built in perk that lets them flat heal on ability kills. But the tree with the larger radius does not heal and the difference in actual radius is like taking a shotgun with max range vs 1 with minimum range type of difference. You basically have to hit them dead on with the skill tree that heals to kill them. #3: the arc super you were talking about is kind of unclear as both of the supers have an aoe attack, but let me just mention some things to you. The actual radius of the fist of havoc (blue dude that runs on the ground) isn't quite that large. You can jump over it and consistently avoid dying just by engaging your double jump on Hunter or glide on warlock. It as a attack is also limited to the ground, so they can't kill you mid air randomly in an aoe but the vertical radius of the attack might if they do manage to contact the ground. The other arc super is the titans thundercrash or single use high explosive radius super. In terms of how large the radius is, it isn't any larger than the tracking nova bomb is on top tree void and the overall spread of blade barrage can kill just as many if not more over a larger area due to the knives tracking and only needing one to kill as they explode after a short delay. They all function pretty much the same except the titan has to manually control the super to its destination which gives them more precision for killing targets and allowing them to more consistently kill the targets they are aiming at. I think this covers most of the things you had problems with or at least informs you a little bit on how it functions. These are a lot of things that newer people get incorrect but I think once you start getting around to fighting the other classes it won't feel much different. What you really should be looking out for is a good Hunter. A good Hunter is going to make the experience you are having now feel like a dream. Them jumping beans when used correctly can be insane.
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Class preference is 100% subjective. You are new, so haven't seen enough posts yet, but let me assure you; there are plenty of people, just like you, that make these kind of posts regarding both Hunters and Warlocks. Both weapon and exotic armor metas change, with the different sandbox patches/reworks Bungie does. And often give sometimes slight, and sometimes significant advantages to 1 or 2 of the classes. It's typically cyclical. Things get buffed, things get nerfed, rinse and repeat. My suggestion, is to play with all 3 classes, a fair amount of time. Learn their advantages and their disadvantages. Prior to coming to the forum, and complaining about a class you may have only used yourself, once, twice, or not at all.
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1 ReplyAs a titan main... I have to say... this is so not true. I get wrecked by more of those handheld supernovas than anything else. Yeah, shoulder charges are stupid and people that titan skate should be smacked in the face, but I honestly no: titans are not overpowered. With the way armor is designed now, anyone can be tanky with the correct mods on, so. Yeah...
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5 RepliesEdited by Number1 Casual: 12/24/2019 9:56:12 PMEveryone knows that Hunters are ezmode and that Titans take the most skill to use effectively.
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2 RepliesLet’s see ... titans belong in this game ... pvp doesn’t end of discussion
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5 RepliesEdited by Mighty Shisno: 12/23/2019 11:28:52 AMLet me try to clear up a couple things you've misconstrued. - [b]Titan base melee attacks do not OHK.[/b] The closest thing we had to this was last season when bottom tree Striker could OHK with Knockout active because it is considered an Arc melee ability. - [b]The Solar super that heals on kill does not have big AoE.[/b] The blast radius on its hammers is actually really small. The one that does have the bigger AoE does not heal with each kill. - [b]The Arc supers have relatively small AoE.[/b] The biggest AoE obviously coming from Thundercrash but even it has a smaller blast radius than Nova Bomb. - [b]Well of Radiance doesn't need its healing reduced.[/b] It's already easy enough to get sniped or super'd out of it. Reducing the healing of it would make it unusable; in fact I would propose a damage reduction buff for it on top of its current healing rate. And even if the healing was seen as too much, it's a stationary super. Simply avoid the area it's in, and it's as if it doesn't exist.
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5 Replies1. PLEASE try to use Sunspot Hammers in Crucible. They have no AOE splash, barely enough impact to kill on a perfect direct hit, and the Sunspot is useless on a moving player. I often ignore my super or just use it for area denial, because getting kills with it is a nightmare. Reducing this would severely hurt a subclass tree that has received at least 3 buffs to finally put it in a good place 2. Of course Strikers have a large AOE on their slam. They don't have any ranged attack. With all the nerfs to Bottom Tree Striker, they are MUCH easier to counter. If their slam is worthless, they just become a weaker version of Stormcaller, since that slam is used for an initial multikill or to deny another super TL;DR: If you're getting killed by the Crayon-Eating Class that much, Titans are very much not at fault
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1 ReplyAccording to the guardian.gg class stats page, the top 4 sub classes on console and PC with the best KDA in the past week are all NON Titan sub classes. [url]https://guardian.gg/2/class-stats?platform=pc&mode=5&start=2019-12-16&end=2019-12-23[/url]
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3 RepliesBefore you make posts like this, it's good to have at least some experience with all three classes. You have just one class and it's a Hunter. That says enough.
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9 RepliesI actually read a post on Reddit a few days ago talking about how Hunters are OP and Titans are underpowered. It seems like every class thinks one, or both, of the other classes are OP. I checked your name and found that you only play Hunter. You could try making a Titan and seeing if it is just your own bias, and to see how other people counter your abilities and then using them yourself >:3
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2 RepliesI MIGHT listen to your perspective if you had all 3 classes or at least 2, but nope, only a Hunter. Opinion invalid.
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2 RepliesNever thought I’d see someone point the finger at the Siegebreaker path.
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The buffs to way of the Pathfinder last season killed Titan for me. At the end of season seven I was on the edge and those changes pushed me off. While I still play titan a bunch, I've realized that all the classes are good and fun.
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Well today it’s been hunters with shotguns.....sliding ....crouching and hiding and the good old jump . Hunters are the most agile class in crucible. The crouching is a bit of a cope out but hey it’s crucible.
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15 RepliesEdited by Reckless: 12/23/2019 5:38:36 PMI've played as a hunter main for years so lately I started playing as my Titan, let me say this so everyone can hear me IT WAS SO MUCH EASIER AS A TITAN! If you're a Titan main and are complaining about the game being to easy its because you using what I would consider a beginner class character or easy mode lol
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I'm confused as to what you are asking are you saying titans are busted as in broken or weak. Titans in my opinion are perfect and only needs buffs/reworks to their exotics. Warlocks need straight up reworks to everything due to powercreep and outdated tools. Hunters are only getting more tools and that is acceptable. Everything has a counter and titans are far from broken in pve and could use more utility in pve. They only seem broke because of the buffs which they badly needed ,titans before oem and the buffs were just really slow hunters which is wrong.
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The Titan class has a low skill ceiling with annoying OHK shoulder charge. They’re only a danger if you don’t know what you’re doing, otherwise they’re just annoying.
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I see more hunters in PvP. If it was that bad, you'd think you'd see more Titans.
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Youre just shit thats all... got nothing to do with titans
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10 RepliesI mean, I’ve been saying this since D1 but 1 shot abilities, other than supers, shouldn’t exist in the game... shoulder charge.
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Edited by DiZ: 12/23/2019 7:52:31 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong, but the four main points you had were that: - AoEs on both Titan Arc(I think you're talking about Thundercrash, because Fist of Havoc's slam is probably the worst AoE out of all Supers) and Solar Supers are too high - Health on Super(actually any ability depending on skill tree) kills on Solar Titans is too strong - Titans have a ohk base melee - Titans are harder to kill(I'll assume you're speaking in terms of an ability to take more incoming damage) Now, here are my counters and/or corrections(I've placed them in Spoilers to avoid a giant text wall): [spoiler]Thundercrash does have a large AoE, and some could argue that's deserved considering its nature as not just a "one and done" or shutdown Super, but as one that puts the user in harms way unlike the others. Fist of Havoc on the otherhand has a very small AoE on its heavy slam attack that has intense dropoff once outside of its kill range. It's probably the easiest Arc Super to run/jump away from if they're trying to slam after the initial activation, which they shouldn't be doing anyways as using it eats through the Super bar rapidly. As for Solar Titans, since you didn't specify, I'll infer you're referring to bottom tree Hammers. Yes, it heals for a set amount after every Super/ability kill, or kills on targets who were still burning from one you applied to them. But its explosion radius is actually pitiful. You have to hit your target dead on or they're not dying from full health. Maybe if they're close enough to burn out to the Sunspot left afterwards, sure, but even that has an easily avoidable radius. Top Hammers with the extra Cluster explosions from Vulcan's Rage is what has the large AoE, but it has no form of health regeneration at all. Burning Maul also has a large AoE on its heavy attack that spirals upwards, but again, it has no healing on the Super. As for the ohk base melee, that's just factually false. At least without the help of certain Exotic armors or possibly a One-Two Punch Shotgun, but every class has access to an uncharged ohk melee if that's the case. They do have Shoulder Charge, but that doesn't really make Titans some ungodly class to play against in the grand scheme of things. And in the previous season, Titans could do that another way through the use of the Artifact Mod, Thundercoil. In a world full of Special weapons and fast TTK CQC weapons like Last Word or Recluse for instance(possibly even Sidearms too after the recent buff), Shoulder Charge has better utility as a Great Value dodge than getting a lot of kills with it. This might hurt some people to hear(read?), but if a Titan can do so, that's far more of a misstep on their opponents' part than SC being too powerful, as in a lobby of at least above average or ranged-oriented players, SC may as well be feeding free kills to the enemy team. Now in terms of having more health than others, again, that's just untrue. Previously, that could've been somewhat supported due to the old armor system having Titan armor a bit biased towards having a high base Resilience stat. But now, all stats are random on armor. For instance, when I play PvP, my Titan only reaches the second Tier in Resilience, and could even go down as far as the first, or even before that if my armor had less intrinsically. But the main thing with Resilience is that, unfortunately, it's almost unanimously agreed by those in the know that it's the worst stat to spec for in the game, whether that be in PvE or PvP. Only at the higher ends do you see much of a difference, but even then, that will only save you from extremely niche situations. Or not at all if your opponent(s) hit enough headshots. I'd say the most notable things it'll save you from are: - Burning out to Thorn's poison if they're only allowing for the minimum damage usually needed - Not getting ohk'd to the body by an Aggressive Snipe like the Revoker by someone with a damage buff active - Getting two-tapped by a OEM Titan with both Vengeance and Memento Mori on Ace active(you don't need much for that though) And you may possibly survive a blast from a High-Impact Fusion Rifle(i.e. Erentil) since one more bolt out of the seven will need to hit(it goes from four out of seven to five out of seven, unless they have max Impact or High-Impact Reserves). It won't save you from Last Word, a three-tap from NF(even if the last shot's a bodyshot), a double bodyshot kill from a Rapid-Fire Snipe(i.e. Twilight Oath), Lord of Wolves(which is extremely powerful on PC) or a three-tap to the face from any Hand Cannon that's not a general Precsion frame. And then for every other primary weapon class, maybe someone will need to hit one or two more headshots than the minimum for the same optimal TTK. Though if they already hit more than the minimum(which will be even easier if you have low Mobility), that Resilience means absolutely nothing. Most times, it'd be better to use better movement and/or a higher Mobility stat to just dodge some of the incoming fire and not deal with it in the first place, or disengage with a higher Recovery stat to reengage faster(whether that be with the person you were just fighting or another). Higher Recovery will also allow you to be ready for the next fight provided you won the previous one.[/spoiler] Edit: To get into your point about Arc and Solar Titan's being popular: [spoiler]According to guardian.gg, in terms of Titan subclasses, Arc is the most popular, with Solar being at the bottom. But when compared to all subclasses, neither are even top three. And on both PC and console, Sunbreaker's either at the very bottom or extremely close to it in all categories, not just popularity. Strangely enough, Gunslinger/Blade Barrage are actually head and shoulders above everything else in terms of popularity on either platform. And have held that spot for a long time.[/spoiler]
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Maybe it’s different on pc but on console titans are fine, especially now that oem has been slightly nerfed and there is no thunder coil and the recluse nerf has helped too. Hunters are more annoying to me than titans but that is because the field of view is too small to keep up with their quick jumps on console. But if I’m being honest in most of my lobbies it is the warlock that ends with the best efficiency. So while there may be more hunters and titans than warlocks out there it seems like the people who do play warlock understand how to use the class to their advantage better.
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You must be a really happy player if the things you've mentioned are your main concerns in the crucible - of course from your perspective hunters are fine but warlocks and titans are op in one way or another. Funny coming from a stompee void hunter (:
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Edited by an Ape with a d2 addiction: 12/23/2019 11:47:02 AMA respectfully toned post is rare in this forum. Trying to answer in kind. Will offer counter-arguments and perspective in spirit of discussion, not flaming. Titan main for the past 7 months or so. Forcing pve into pvp via pvp steps in pve quests should absolutely not be a thing. All it creates is unhappy folks and angry forum posts. From what I understood you have a misunderstanding that titans are tankier / have more health / more damage reduction in pvp. This is factually wrong. All classes have default 186 health at 0 resilience. Resilience works the same for all classes (barring the recent class ability CD changes) and is universally not a very valuable pvp stat in comparison to recovery. There's no subclass, armor or exotic that offers passive, always applied damage reduction on any class. Bottom tree solar throwing hammers super is very strong right now. Has sorta always been, just overshadowed by other sub-classes. All solar class-supers traditionally tend to have shorter durations with more AoE / quick ranged teamwipe potential. Think 6-shooter golden gun, daybreak. Arc supers had traditionally longer duration and more melee-range oriented kills. In that spirit I think the damage side is fine with bottom tree solar titan. The duration is fine in comparison to the kill potential. Warlock daybreak behaves very similarly. The health regen on kill is also a perk on that specific sub-class. Health regen on super kills is too strong on any class. Bottom tree striker just had a similar health regen on super melee kills aspect removed/nerfed completely for a good reason. It makes a super too hard to shut down and too easy to streak with. I agree this is something that would be a viable nerf on bottom tree hammers. Titan arc subclass supers dont really have noticeable AoE ability. Missile is one thing but that's a shut-down super anyway. Personally at least on PC / MnKB I don't see shoulder charges as a problem. A shotgun OHKs from a longer range. It's a hard counter to shoulder charge and a better close range OHK tool. The shoulder charge sub-classes tend to have little or no utility besides that one ability that's not a really viable tool, at least in PC high skill brackets. Honestly thinking back long term, the titan are OP -mentality started gaining more and more traction as this year went on. There were 2 main reasons for this: one-eyed mask and bottom tree striker super being completely busted. OEM was/sorta is still self-explanatory. Bottom tree roaming slam used to have way more duration, damage resistance AND health regen on kills. The slam has been nerfed to ground. Duration, resistance and regen all removed to good levels. OEM tracking is still too strong, but removing the overshield at least curbed the quickplay pugstomping potential. The 2 main reasons that created the titans = OP echo chamber are gone, but the community mentality is still there. -edit- Before someone argues it, middle tree solar throwing hammer melee is not a default OHK ability. It does 153 damage with solar plexus and 189 damage with plexus stacked with x1 roaring flames, which only OHKs 3 resilience and lower.
