{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
Edited by Scratch:
3/17/2017 12:06:44 PM
37
What Bungie fails to understand about weapon balance
After this last patch I know what Bungie is doing and where they are going wrong. I'm willing to bet they are looking at the numbers and saying 'well, people aren't using all four types of secondaries equally. It's not 25% shot gun, 25% snipe, 25% fusion, 25% sidearms, we got to do something' But tweaking guns so they are all being USED equally is not weapon balance. Shot guns and snipers are ALWAYS going to be crowd favorites, a smaller percent will like fusion rifles, and an even small niche will prefer sidearms.
Do an experiment. Conduct a poll saying:
If all four types of secondaries were completely balanced would you use
-shotgun
-sniper rifle
-fusion rifle
-sidearm
If the result of that poll is 25%25%25%25% then I'll eat my hat.
See, the problem is if you tweak for equal USAGE you never get it. People want to use what they want to use. If only 5% of people use sidearms and you try to increase that to 25% by, say ... taking away ammo for the other gun types more people will use them ...because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to. And now much more than 25% will be using them. You will NEVER have weapons balanced for power AND usage.
Just balance for power and accept the fact that not all four types will be USED equally. If you tweak for USAGE then a lot of us will be forced to use something we don't want to use.
Please post that poll. If the results come back 35% 35% 20% 10% and you are trying to tweak for equal USAGE that means you are tweaking for people to use guns they don't want to use, and that's not fun.
I posted this analogy before but here goes
If you ran an icecream shop and noticed you sold 50% vanilla, 40% chocolate, and 10% strawberry would you try to change that or would you accept that not all flavors are equally popular? You wouldn't make the vanilla and chocolate taste worse so more people buy strawberry so you could sell 33% of each flavor... right? You'd just make each flavor the best it could be and let people eat what they want. So do that with guns. Balance them for POWER so each has strengths and weakness, and let people use what they want. Because every tweak for USAGE enevitably makes one gun better(sidearm right now) and that type is the only thing worth using til the next tweak. If you balance for power then all four types are USEABLE, even if they are not equally USED
Don't aim for 25% 25% 25% 25%, you'll never get that and if you do lots of players are unhappy
Aim for balanced POWER. Let the snipers be snipers, Let the shotgunners be shotgunners, Let those who like to switch it up, switch it up....etc. And who cares if one gun is being used more than another! Cuz an empty shotgun vs a loaded sidearm ain't ballance, it's coercion!
Hope you concider this
Thank you for listening
Scratch
-
1 ReplyYa I like vanilla but I eat strawberry too if you understand the metaphor
-
I like strawberry ice cream... :'( But in all seriousness, you have a point.
-
Well said. Dont wait for bungie, make the poll yourself! Im curious to see what the results would look like
-
This is a great post and describes my thoughts pretty well
-
No one cares about your opinion, I'm sorry. These essays are the reasons that this game is broke
-
They ruined this game.... Why can't they just leave it alone. Everytime I get on somethings changed. It's -blam!-ing annoying af. [b]STOP CHANGING THE GAME FOR THE NOOBS WHO COMPLAIN ABOUT "OVERPOWERED" WEAPONS. What about the loyal destiny players that have been here since day 1?? [/b] all the guns we fought hard to get are -blam!-ing useless now?!?!? What is the point. 😒👎🏼
-
You know there is a stream on the way this week and lets be honest they got some serious splaining to do or their Age is going to be a very short one.
-
Man that is a hell lot of words. I actually clicked it in hopes of seeing one word EVERYTHING
-
This is the most thought out post I've seen on forums in a while and probably the most correct concerning the use of special in destiny
-
Ive been playing Destiny since day 1 and can tell you that Bungie is the worst when it comes to weapon balance! There is no organization, fairness, equity, impartiality, or remaining logic to their stupid way of running a sh*** show. They act like tweaking weapons is a required constant form of innovation for the game. The devs always find some way to nerf and buff weapons and then blog about it like its something we all wanted. At the beginning, their nerfs were biased and sided with select focus groups and then bungo caught on and started to nerf every type of weapon class. Now, they've managed to mess with all the weapons so that way they can continue to cherry pick their own wrong doings and try to make it sound like they are re-configuring things to role play as being productive. All this shenanigans with weapon alteration is a conspiracy to give their developers work to do at their place of business otherwise they would be put out of work. I cant come up with a more reasonable conclusion than that :/
-
1 ReplyIt's hard though, because in a shotgun meta, shotgun usage is through the roof and everything else is low, and vice versa for all the metas. The stats don't necessarily depict [i]what[/i] people wanna use, but what they are [i]forced[/i] to use.
-
Edited by Dexterem: 3/17/2017 8:53:47 PMAll of the reasons below are Great! Allot make very valid points!.... but you are missing the point. The term balance..... this isn't a thing it is not a bungie goal.... Balance is not something you will find in the destiny universe. Your analogy would be more accurate for the ice cream shop if you put it into bungie business model would be "we sell 40% vanilla, 40%chocolate and 20% strawberry..... hmm people may get bored if they keep eating just vanilla or chocolate so let's water the vanilla down, now let's hide the chocolate and let's build a display to show how great strawberry is. Okay so now it 10% vanilla 60% chocolate and 30% strawberry. Now I'm still not happy let's water down vanilla less and start watering down chocolate more and make strawberry cheaper.... okay now strawberry is the strongest. Now 6-7 months goes by everyone hates strawberry so reverse it water all of them down till eventually the store goes under". That is the more accurate interpretation of how bungie wants to run the shop. Honestly and not to poke fun, but your first statement is very off you do not know what bungie is doing wrong, because in their minds they are not doing anything wrong. I cannot stress this enough they do not want balance!
-
They also tend to balance weapons one archetype at a time in relevancy to the entire landscape of destiny instead of within it's weapon class. Then they get surprised when one archetype is trash while the others are either all good or mostly ok with one amazing. They don't balance out a weapon class within itself. If they did, then they could proportionally balance the entirety of that weapon class to the landscape of destiny which would make for a much more fluid transition between metas and much lower risk of chaos. If then the community says "this weapon class is too strong/weak", you wouldn't have to balance an entire class based off one archetype and thus cause for more imbalance. If they had found a way to make that possible since the beginning, we wouldn't be in this mess.
-
Edited by Oddish43: 3/17/2017 8:54:43 PM[b]QUOTE: Cuz an empty shotgun vs a loaded sidearm ain't ballance, it's coercion! [/b] This. A thousand times this. Bungie has made it so that only sidearms can serve the proper purpose of a special weapon. Everything else is unreliable junk. For the proper purpose of a special: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/223094086?sort=0&page=0
-
4 Replieshttps://youtu.be/bsC8io4w1sY to all the people who see this pls watch this it's about why game devs should buff more then nerf
-
5 RepliesBasically you're right, and in an interview that Jon Weisznewski gave back in Dec. of 2015, he basically confirmed that this was what his ultimate goal was.... ...and this is ***part*** of the reason why the game doesn't have a healthy sandbox. One of mentors was a Endocrinologist----someone who studies how the human body regulates its function hormonally. One of the needs of the body is to maintain "balance". To keep consistent INTERNAL conditions despite widely varying EXTERNAL conditions. The technical name for that process is "Homeostasis". Well how your body does this is NOT by doing what the sandbox team does. What it does is that if the environment is doing something to put you out of balance...it does something "out of balance" in the opposite direction to bring it back. So---for example---if its cold and your body temperature starts to drop, your body will rev up your metabolism in order to generate heat. IF YOUR BODY DOESN'T DO THIS, THEN SOMETHING'S WRONG (your about to die from hypothermia or you have a thyroid disorder). So someof his favorite sayings were, " [i] If it ain't up....then its down. If it's now down...then its up. [/i] What does this mean for the Crucible? This. IN A BALANCED WEAPON SYSTEM, YOU ARE ONLY GOING TO SEE EQUAL WEAPON USAGE IF THE MAPS ARE DESIGNED WELL ENOUGH, AND IN ENOUGH VARIETY THAT THEY DON'T FAVOR ANY PARTICULAR ENGAGEMENT RANGE, OR ANY PARTICULAR PLAY STYLE. ...and Destiny has NEVER had anything remotely resembling that. Maps from Year 1 and Year 3 overwhelmingly favor close-range combat. Maps from Year 2 clearly favor mid-range combat. So naturally shotguns, ARs, Hand cannons and other weapons that are designed to be effective at close range are going to be "overused" in Years 1 and 3. [b] If they aren't...then somethings wrong. You've made them UNDERPOWERED. If they aren't up....then they're down. [/b] Which is exactly what happened when Bungie tried to "balance" (equalize) usage. They broke both ARs and Hand cannons for a time. Conversely on Year 2 maps, snipers were naturally going to be "overused" beause of the maps that were bigger, more open, and had longer sight lines. Again, IF THEY WEREN'T BEING OVERUSED, THEN SOMETHING'S WRONG. You've made them underpowered. That's the problem here. Is that Sandbox teams methods tell them WHAT is happening in the Crucible...but not WHY its happening. Compounding the problem is that its also clear that the people making the decisions DON'T PLAY THEIR OWN GAME ENOUGH to have the insight to properly interpret what their own data is trying to tell them....and lack the experience balancing such systems to overcome that lack of insight. So you just get this endless cycle of the dominant weapons getting a huge nerf....and the least used weapons a slight buff...... ...and the result is a constant state of power drain....and every weapon (and ability) in the game becoming progressively weaker and more frustrating to use and to play with. Culminating in the asinine changes that were made with the last patch. When EVERYTHING was screaming that parmary weapons were underpowered and need to be buffed....and Bungie respond by breakging shotguns....and trying to push special weapons out of the game entirely. So you now have a situation with all these close quarters maps....where shotguns only account for 5% of the kills. People are running around fighting with mid-range primaries and sidearms. Because Bungie has found a way to break all the weapons that actually SHOULD be dominating in this setting. Play has become that absurdly unnatural and stilted. Its no wonder why so many people are unhappy. The only wonder is how it is that EVERYONE isn't unhappy with this situation.
-
2 RepliesSorry, but your analogy is flawed. Preferring the 10% strawberry gives no advantage or disadvantage to that of the higher percentage vanilla or chocolate lovers. Taste is subjective. Weapon power and method/ease of use is not. SA’s are not proving to be the huge problem that snipers and shotguns were, at least in 6v6, during their reign SA’s need some advantage as they are not OHK, so current is as good as any that could have been proposed. There are plenty of special ammo crate spawns. Use them if you still want to run you preferred option, but you now have to work a little harder to sustain it
-
11 RepliesPeople just need to be allowed to use what they like. Some people love AR's and will try to find a way to use them successfully regardless. Ditto HC's. I, myself, am a Scout Rifle man. Have loved Scout Rifles since the concept was introduced in Halo Reach (the DMR). In both PVP and PVE, they just need to stop obsessing over what people are using because it is largely based on personal preference and feel. I won't use high impact PR's no matter HOW good they make them because they feel clunky and awkward, and the shot rhythm is off. Some people will swear by them even if they're not the top of the meta. That's just how it goes.
-
Make the vanilla taste like shit so that more people buy strawberry. Boom, balance.
-
1 ReplyEdited by RavenousLD3341: 3/17/2017 2:48:50 PMThe fundamental flaw of their weapon "balance" Is that there's an entire weapon slot that kills 33% SLOWER THAN THE OTHER 2. That, I'm convinced, is the problem. Slamming special weapons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over Isn't fixing anything, because it's a symptom, not the disease.
-
Great analogy
-
-
2 RepliesDon't hate me for this because I love your post. But it is spelled "balance"-only one L bro!
-
2 RepliesYou should make that pole. I'm really curious now.
-
I feel like not understanding weapon balance is Destiny's thing now, I swear feedback has only been this for about 8 months now.
-
Fusion. Ammo or not. #fusionhilt!!!
