The f.uck? Nightfalls shouldn't be tedious. They should be challenging and fun. Tedious is closer to "not fun" than it is to "challenging."

Hair pulling madness....= fun for me.

I rarely disagree with you, but at the deepest core of my soul I disagree with the comment: [quote]Nightfalls should be tedious[/quote] No! NonononononoNO! The words "game" and "tedious", when combined, do not create "fun".

Bill...I'm going to convince you I'm right on this. I've got both hands on your shoulders...ok now I'm shaking you violently. Ok not really. 😉 Here's the thing. Remember the nightfall before with elemental primaries? Pain in the ass right? Died...start over. Did you take your time and methodically go through each layer of wave to get to the next area so you didn't die? Did you feel challenged and had a sense of accomplishment when it was over? Any adrenaline during that almost close to death moment? People whined and cried a river. They watered it completely down and let you have checkpoints. Sure, they removed elementsl weapons but the enemy is a fluffy bunny now. Was that the trade off you were expecting? Can we not have 1 game mode that is some what of a challenge? When I say tedious. I mean tactical, well placed strategery (yes I spelled it that way on purpose) to get through 1 glorified strike everyone has played a million times and can get through in 30 minutes or less. Nightfalls, should be extremely difficult. They aren't. Just fluffy taken bunnies. Convinced? Come on...I know I changed your mind😎

That's not tedious you're describing there. That's challenging. The nightfall wouldn't last anymore than 20 minutes if you don't wipe. But if you do, it can take up to 2 hours. What's the difference you ask? Take for example the first part of the chaperone quest and the part of the sword quest where you farm for materials. They both took me the same amount of time to do, but I enjoyed the chaperone quest more. Why? Because it was challenging . Eventhough I took me the same time as it did to complete as it did the sword quest, I didn't feel like tearing my hair out after finishing it. This current nightfall takes long to do because you have no super or special or heavy to kill enemies and your primary has no burn. That's no fun. I don't mind spending 2 hours on a nightfall, but the reason has to be due to my own incompetence. Yes I took longer to complete nightfalls in year 1 but that's often because I was careless and had to wipe. That in my opinion is more fun than spending 2 hours on the nightfall because I have no ammo for my special weapon and heavy weapon and my grenades, super and melee are charging very slowly.

Then you prefer strikes? Nightfalls ate challenging because of the modifiers. Ammo is one of those.

Well there you go. Year one Nightfalls were challenging AND had elemental burns. Yes, that orbit if you died thing was the challenge, and it made it unique. Add to that the XP bonus and there were a lot of good reasons to do them. Now? It's a bastardized version of itself. No unique awards, no XP, and now, no elemental primaries. I'm all for a challenge, I am, but not this cheap "enemies have elemental burn primaries and we don't" nonsense that is nothing more than a way to draw out the game. Nightfalls with a team are pretty easy I'm sure, though as a solo player it's not so much so. So here I sit, contemplating a run through Nightfall for an hour for tedious play and unsure rewards OR run CoE a couple times, roll three 3oC each game and pull a couple of exotics, maybe roll a queen's exotic AND have a certain armor and weapon drop at specific point totals. Best of all I don't have to deal with added whammy of elemental damage multipliers that place me at a decided disadvantage. This is not a hard choice.

The only reward that is a disappointment is rep and blue flame. POE is boring as frack. NF requires a few well placed elemental secondary shots the sword clear outs. Good ammo management and patience. I think everyone and yourself included wants to go in guns blazing melt everything in sight with regularity and call it good. That's fine for strikes and poe. Nightfalls should be hard as hell. And all modifiers should be on. Not just a few.

I get it if you want Nightfall to be a three-man raid, but let's call it that if its true. Hours to complete? With no checkpoints and needing a fireteam (I assume you go in with others)? That isn't Nighfall in the traditional sense any more than the current iteration is. You can simplify my view if you like (go in guns blazing) but you'd be wrong. It's one of the things I detest about PoE and PvP modes like Mayhem Clash. It's pointless and senseless and completely not immersive. Your stated preference for Nightfall strikes me in a similar way but from the opposite end of the spectrum. Hard for hard's sake doesn't make a game fun to me. Maybe I'm just getting older, but I'm way past proving anything to myself and others regarding my ability to pop pixels. No, I'm in a game as much for immersion as I am gun play. In stories there is something called "suspension of disbelief" (from this point forward referred to as "SoD") that is, the idea the story is believable enough for me to ignore the implausible parts. I can accept space magic weapons. I cannot accept they only go one way, that only the bad guys can have them, not when the Traveler wrought such miracles upon the solar system. I like to stay alive when I play. Weird I know, but acting like my life is disposable snaps my SoD in an unsettling way. This cuts across all game modes, and is probably the dominant reason I dislike Destiny PvP. It's pointless. Run, shoot, kill, die. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[quote]I like to stay alive when I play. Weird I know, but acting like my life is disposable snaps my SoD in an unsettling way. This cuts across all game modes, and is probably the dominant reason I dislike Destiny PvP. It's pointless. Run, shoot, kill, die. Lather, rinse, repeat.[/quote] It seems to me that validates the year one Nightfall difficulty. Lives mattered, deaths had very real, very harsh consequences. All Nightfalls are now is run, shoot, kill, die. Lather, rinse, repeat. Just seems contradictory to what you are wanting.

I want year one. All of it, including the elemental primaries. I'm not anti-difficulty, I'm anti-"let's remove these guns to make it harder". I don't like things taken from me, especially once I get used to using them. Getting good with something takes practice. I just sometimes feel that time is wasted when the meta wheel stops rolling.

I'm just having trouble understanding your disagreement with rwg. It seems like at the core, you're arguing the same point.

We are. She wants a more challenging game as do I. She is fine with removing elemental primaries to get there, and the way elemental modifiers are added to Nightfalls to get that difficulty. I am not. That's the core difference.

I think you just missed what she said. Her op states it would be nice to have elemental primaries back.

My comparison of Nightfalls comes from Halo. I don’t know if you ever played any of the Nightfalls in Halo, but the Nightfalls here aren’t even remotely close to difficulty as those or a raid here. I want this challenge here. But, I understand that this isn’t for everyone. You’re right, it is easier to go in with a team. But what is the game type in Destiny that is between a raid and a strike? It’s a nightfall. However, for the individual, this is a perfect challenge. If this kind of challenge that you described as unnecessarily hard isn’t fun for your then Bungie has 2 options. Water it down so individuals can complete it, and leave full teams to blow through it. This has already been done and happens now. Or push the community to reassess their ability to complete some of Destiny’s harder content. Learn from it and enjoy the thrill of completion. Instead, here we are finding that it’s still too hard? Still depending on Elemental weapons? This is a major issue for me and one of the biggest factors in how this game has become as it has today. Supers and weapons have been reduced to nothing so individuals can play more watered down content, instead of enjoying the individual reward of the challenges in each game type and difficulty. Especially after fully leveling a character. I’m not sure what you’re trying to convey in regards to a story. Destiny came with none. There shouldn’t be any expectation on plausibility this late into the game. Also, everything you described in what you like about being fully immersed in a game exists in the Nighfalls. Specific gun play and strategy. You obviously have some level of skill. Why conclude the difficulty is over inflated rather than a chance to prove to yourself that you’re up for it? But……here is where you lose me. You……[i]YOU[/i] pulled a Godwin’s law on me with that age excuse. I’m quite positive, I’m older then you are. As I don’t need to prove anything to anyone either, I don’t use that as an excuse to hold me back. Because….I might die…..sheesh. =(

I think you may have a different concept of what has caused the watering down of everything than I do. I think an intertwined weapons sandbox has forced Bungie to water down everything - weapons and supers - for the sake of "balance" and the all-mighty optimal time to kill (TTK). I also see this whole thing as a pendulum. The game in year one pushed harder and harder towards... harder. Beyond a point harder just becomes tedious, and fun diminishes. As people left to find fun games to play, Bungie was forced to back off the harder a bit. Here's the funny thing though... I'm willing to bet fewer people play Nightfalls now than ever. Nightfalls weren't broken before, so no fix was necessary. That didn't stop Bungie! Regardless of my play level - casual or otherwise - I would disagree tedious is a desired outcome of play design for a successful game. VoG is a prime example of interesting play that could be difficult. Nightfalls? Those are just dialed up strikes with modifiers. If I might test your age with a movie reference, Bungie's dial goes up to 11. That's their idea of difficulty and complexity. Point is, pumping in more heavily shielded enemies that can one-hit kill you is no replacement for good game design. It's clear we both want something different from the game. No biggie. I just did a double-take when I actually saw someone post they wanted more tedium and thought it should last for hours. Imagine that crap printed on posters or on the game box!

So you believe Bungie made things less hard but the nightfalls simply because one or two witches have a burn and we no longer have a primary elemental weapons? I don't think anyone does the nightfalls anymore because they think they are owed 335 everything and it's too challenging for the rewards expected. I happen to like the 30 coin or 3ofC rewards. I also think people complain because they don't level properly. Use the correct armor. Equip the right weapons and go in thinking it should be like a strike. If you're a 330 and above, nothing should be stopping you. Casual or otherwise. And I got your reference. Still no excuse😕