[quote]You Can't Patch Players
In late September, Bungie closed the Loot Cave for business. They changed the spawn timer on the enemies in the cave, making it much more difficult to stand outside and gain experience and loot. It was the end of an era.
Or, well, no it wasn't. Shortly after that, players discovered a new loot cave. Bungie tweaked that one too, but a narrative had been established:
Players come up with an exploit.
Bungie patches it.
Players find a new exploit.
Soon, most players had moved on from Loot Caves to cheesing the weekly nightfall strikes and the raids, two much more complicated activities that, while difficult to complete, offered much better and more consistent rewards.
Like all cheese, Destiny's exploits come with an expiration date. For a time, it was possible to stand together on a podium and easily wipe out the Templar mid-boss of the Vault of Glass. Then Bungie patched the game to make that area out of bounds. After that, people figured out how to knock the Templar off of his platform using grenades. Eventually, Bungie patched that, too.
It was possible to do something similar to the raid's final boss Atheon, comically knocking the big dumb lunk off of a cliff with grenades. Then Bungie patched that. Players figured out how to arrange themselves into "home" and "away" teams for the Atheon battle—this approach wasn't even a cheese, we just thought it was how the battle was supposed to go—but Bungie patched that, too. These days, players can easily cheese the majority of the game's strikes and entire sections of Crota's End. Surely Bungie will patch all those, too.
Here's the thing, though: when it comes down to it, you can't patch players. We are talking about people who not only can pull something like throwing a boss of a cliff, they can also figure out that something like that is possible in the first place. Thanks largely to communities like the superb Destiny subreddit, any player can easily find videos and guides to help them exploit the game. Bungie never stood a chance.
[b]The more I play, the more it seems like the studio's determination to shut down players' unsanctioned fun is misguided. It also feels oddly insecure, like Bungie isn't confident that their game is fun enough on its own, that they worry that if players are able to play it "wrong," to exploit loopholes to get better gear, that they'll eventually max out their inventory and quit altogether.[/b]
That is doubtless true for some players, but actually I haven't found it to be true for me. Yes, part of what drives me to keep playing is that lizard-brain thing where you just really want the rocket launcher that Crota drops and you still haven't beaten him with your hunter this week. But most of what keeps me playing are the very strengths that Bungie would claim Destiny embodies: I keep playing because I'm having fun and because I like hanging out with my teammates.
[b]The most frustrating thing about all of this is that while Bungie scrambles to undo the work of Destiny's most industrious cheesers, they're leaving a number of actual, widespread problems unaddressed. For example:
For months now, there's been a bug where any armor that increases your heavy ammo capacity causes you to lose precious heavy ammo every time you respawn. It's been unpatched for ages and is maddening.3132
When fighting Crota, there is a bug that causes the sword—a vital weapon—to simply disappear for no reason.
There's another Crota bug that causes him to leap down from his platform and follow you onto the ground, killing your team about as quickly as an indestructible god would. More than once, that bug or the one before it, caused us to fail in an otherwise flawless battle. I tell you what, nothing gets me reaching for my LAN cable faster than a shitty bug undoing a flawless run against Crota.
For at least a couple of months, the audio during the templar battle in the Vault of Glass would cut out. Bungie repeatedly patched and removed exploits from that battle, and yet the audio glitch remained. 3334
Plenty of other small bugs linger as well: chat cuts out in loading screens, Atheon's deadly imprisoning globes can sometimes follow you through his time-portals, you can get two identical items in the same drop in the Vault of Glass, exotic items won in the Vault lack the upgrades given to exotics everywhere else, the stats page at the end of missions doesn't actually seem to track your stats correctly, and on, and on.[/b]
Bungie appears more concerned with squashing creative player exploits than they are with making sure their game works properly. Granted, there's an argument that making the game work properly involves the removal of exploits. But eventually Bungie is going to have to acquiesce to the fact that every time they patch a cheese, a new cheese will rise to take its place. Hopefully they'll begin to reprioritize and focus on making sure the game works well for those who don't want to farm exploits.[/quote]
Taken from the Kotaku 4 month later review.
You see Bungie, here's the thing. You can fix this sort of thing all you like, but all players will do is find another way to cheese, glitch and otherwise break your game. You need to focus on the numerous flaws with your game, add things and the like rather then attempt to fix people cheesing and the like, because all the time the game does not feel rewarding, all the time it feels like we are working AGIANST you, means players will keep looking for these exploits.
And just to clarify, I enjoy this game. But if you spent time MAKING IT BETTER rather then trying to shut down the ways people break your game, it could be so much more.
I recall you saying Destiny can be played your way. It seems more and more like it's Bungies way.
EDIT: The moment the game is patched to fix the cheeses, new Crota's End cheeses are found. Point Proven: YOU CAN'T PATCH PLAYERS
[b]And to clarify: I'm not trying to justify cheesing or cheating or whatever you want to call it.[/b] I'm saying Bungie priorities should be improving the rest of/features of the game and fixing bugs that affect gameplay in a more negative way..
English
#Destiny
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I like this quote about why players cheese "It's like pulling off a band aid. It's gonna hurt, so might as well make it quick " It's a good analogy in my eyes. The loot system could work a lot better, making the journey through raids worth while. Now people don't have the choice but to run it legitimatly (until new cheeses are found) i only hope they fix the loot system. Even if you had to run that vog 5 times, if you were guaranteed usefull loot at the end, it would be worth it and people would work through it knowing there was a worthy reward for their efforts. And more so, they would feel that they earned it and it would feel much more rewarding.
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[quote][quote]You Can't Patch Players In late September, Bungie closed the Loot Cave for business. They changed the spawn timer on the enemies in the cave, making it much more difficult to stand outside and gain experience and loot. It was the end of an era. Or, well, no it wasn't. Shortly after that, players discovered a new loot cave. Bungie tweaked that one too, but a narrative had been established: Players come up with an exploit. Bungie patches it. Players find a new exploit. Soon, most players had moved on from Loot Caves to cheesing the weekly nightfall strikes and the raids, two much more complicated activities that, while difficult to complete, offered much better and more consistent rewards. Like all cheese, Destiny's exploits come with an expiration date. For a time, it was possible to stand together on a podium and easily wipe out the Templar mid-boss of the Vault of Glass. Then Bungie patched the game to make that area out of bounds. After that, people figured out how to knock the Templar off of his platform using grenades. Eventually, Bungie patched that, too. It was possible to do something similar to the raid's final boss Atheon, comically knocking the big dumb lunk off of a cliff with grenades. Then Bungie patched that. Players figured out how to arrange themselves into "home" and "away" teams for the Atheon battle—this approach wasn't even a cheese, we just thought it was how the battle was supposed to go—but Bungie patched that, too. These days, players can easily cheese the majority of the game's strikes and entire sections of Crota's End. Surely Bungie will patch all those, too. Here's the thing, though: when it comes down to it, you can't patch players. We are talking about people who not only can pull something like throwing a boss of a cliff, they can also figure out that something like that is possible in the first place. Thanks largely to communities like the superb Destiny subreddit, any player can easily find videos and guides to help them exploit the game. Bungie never stood a chance. [b]The more I play, the more it seems like the studio's determination to shut down players' unsanctioned fun is misguided. It also feels oddly insecure, like Bungie isn't confident that their game is fun enough on its own, that they worry that if players are able to play it "wrong," to exploit loopholes to get better gear, that they'll eventually max out their inventory and quit altogether.[/b] That is doubtless true for some players, but actually I haven't found it to be true for me. Yes, part of what drives me to keep playing is that lizard-brain thing where you just really want the rocket launcher that Crota drops and you still haven't beaten him with your hunter this week. But most of what keeps me playing are the very strengths that Bungie would claim Destiny embodies: I keep playing because I'm having fun and because I like hanging out with my teammates. [b]The most frustrating thing about all of this is that while Bungie scrambles to undo the work of Destiny's most industrious cheesers, they're leaving a number of actual, widespread problems unaddressed. For example: For months now, there's been a bug where any armor that increases your heavy ammo capacity causes you to lose precious heavy ammo every time you respawn. It's been unpatched for ages and is maddening.3132 When fighting Crota, there is a bug that causes the sword—a vital weapon—to simply disappear for no reason. There's another Crota bug that causes him to leap down from his platform and follow you onto the ground, killing your team about as quickly as an indestructible god would. More than once, that bug or the one before it, caused us to fail in an otherwise flawless battle. I tell you what, nothing gets me reaching for my LAN cable faster than a shitty bug undoing a flawless run against Crota. For at least a couple of months, the audio during the templar battle in the Vault of Glass would cut out. Bungie repeatedly patched and removed exploits from that battle, and yet the audio glitch remained. 3334 Plenty of other small bugs linger as well: chat cuts out in loading screens, Atheon's deadly imprisoning globes can sometimes follow you through his time-portals, you can get two identical items in the same drop in the Vault of Glass, exotic items won in the Vault lack the upgrades given to exotics everywhere else, the stats page at the end of missions doesn't actually seem to track your stats correctly, and on, and on.[/b] Bungie appears more concerned with squashing creative player exploits than they are with making sure their game works properly. Granted, there's an argument that making the game work properly involves the removal of exploits. But eventually Bungie is going to have to acquiesce to the fact that every time they patch a cheese, a new cheese will rise to take its place. Hopefully they'll begin to reprioritize and focus on making sure the game works well for those who don't want to farm exploits.[/quote] Taken from the Kotaku 4 month later review. You see Bungie, here's the thing. You can fix this sort of thing all you like, but all players will do is find another way to cheese, glitch and otherwise break your game. You need to focus on the numerous flaws with your game, add things and the like rather then attempt to fix people cheesing and the like, because all the time the game does not feel rewarding, all the time it feels like we are working AGIANST you, means players will keep looking for these exploits. And just to clarify, I enjoy this game. But if you spent time MAKING IT BETTER rather then trying to shut down the ways people break your game, it could be so much more. I recall you saying Destiny can be played your way. It seems more and more like it's Bungies way.[/quote] Bump as well
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Blah blah blahhh
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2 RepliesThe only patch Bungie needs to work on is guaranteed weapon "unlocks" versus random reward drops. No one in our community would say they actually enjoy being rewarded garbage. We all play raid "x" or nightfall "y" because we hope to get something specific. Look at all the posts on this forum about "what do you want xur to sell?" Or "post your weeks loot cache!". What do you see? A majority of people not getting what they want; despite their efforts and time spent in game. Granted, some people do get lucky and receive good gear, but there's no reason why we all can't choose what reward we want to work for. If I want my legend to have gjallarhorn, for instance, I shouldn't be grinding new characters each week in order to gain one additional chance during the nightfall, raids and general leveling process. It should be direct, just like the pointless grimiore cards. Oh you want red death? Okay! Start with a common and make your way to legendary pulse rifles, accumulating headshots during near death situations. Make the amount of times fair, but not so much that players feel taxed, which will result in a cheese. That or give us coins per completion of tasks. Vanguard tokens for dailies, and story to be used on gear up to legendary. Common being 1-3 coins and up to a max of 100. Raids give nothing but coins to buy guns or armor that YOU want (only after 100% completion). While upgrades cost large sums of glimmer plus vanguard or crucible marks for special mats, Exotics would be quests purchased from xur. All items available, but sought after guns/armor would cost more, and their quests, difficult. Just my two cents.
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65 RepliesThe problem is that bungie as a developer is a company with its roots in traditional FPS games such as their much beloved halo franchise(before they sold it to 343). Because of that, they have a mindset that patches and post launch undated serve a single purpose: fixing things that cause the game not to be played as they intended. They have not realized that when you toss the term MMO around with your game, you invite the idea of sandbox style gameplay into your world. Sandboxing is all about accomplishing your end goal in unique and interesting ways. The playing community consists now (versus at launch) primarily of sandbox mmo gamers who choose NOT TO play a linear path to end game, but rather want to find new and different ways to accomplish a goal. If that is not what you want your gamers to do, simply don't use terms like 'open world' or 'MMO' or ' vast' in your advertisements. We won't bother buying your product. Honesty, if you intend your game to be played on a singularly liner path, just make a movie style fps with a bunch of cut scenes, where no matter what, I HAVE to play and kill exactly as you want to progress through the story. Bungie did this with halo, and it was their greatest success. But don't tell me I can do whatever I want, then turn around and 'fix' something because I did it differently than you imagined I'd do it. A good developer praises those players that make them rethink their job and work harder. A great relationship between developer and player is one where the dev give a challenge to their player, the player finds a unique way to bypass said challenge, then the dev goes 'wow, I didn't think about that! Here, try this, I took what you did and made something awesome out of it!' Not one where the dev gets pissy and says ' no! You didn't do it right! Let me keep you from doing that and now try again!'....see where I'm going with this... They should have taken the idea of using grenade to push athron and the templar and made a strike or something where the only way to win was get the boss to jump off a cliff! That's what a good developer does...
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Don't forget the glitch where your team hits Crota with enough Gjallarhorn rockets to put him on his knees 3 times over and he just stands there looking at you funny while you wail on his feet with the sword. It took me awhile to realize this was actually Bungie's fault and not my team's. In the chaos it's kinda hard to see Crota's healthbar, but if you look, he has no shields and he's still standing straight up, completely invincible. I've had that break a flawless run 3 times in the last 48 hours.
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Great post, completely agree
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2 RepliesTHE CHEESEAGE HAS BEGUN, MY FELLOW CHEESERS, RISE!
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[quote][quote]You Can't Patch Players In late September, Bungie closed the Loot Cave for business. They changed the spawn timer on the enemies in the cave, making it much more difficult to stand outside and gain experience and loot. It was the end of an era. Or, well, no it wasn't. Shortly after that, players discovered a new loot cave. Bungie tweaked that one too, but a narrative had been established: Players come up with an exploit. Bungie patches it. Players find a new exploit. Soon, most players had moved on from Loot Caves to cheesing the weekly nightfall strikes and the raids, two much more complicated activities that, while difficult to complete, offered much better and more consistent rewards. Like all cheese, Destiny's exploits come with an expiration date. For a time, it was possible to stand together on a podium and easily wipe out the Templar mid-boss of the Vault of Glass. Then Bungie patched the game to make that area out of bounds. After that, people figured out how to knock the Templar off of his platform using grenades. Eventually, Bungie patched that, too. It was possible to do something similar to the raid's final boss Atheon, comically knocking the big dumb lunk off of a cliff with grenades. Then Bungie patched that. Players figured out how to arrange themselves into "home" and "away" teams for the Atheon battle—this approach wasn't even a cheese, we just thought it was how the battle was supposed to go—but Bungie patched that, too. These days, players can easily cheese the majority of the game's strikes and entire sections of Crota's End. Surely Bungie will patch all those, too. Here's the thing, though: when it comes down to it, you can't patch players. We are talking about people who not only can pull something like throwing a boss of a cliff, they can also figure out that something like that is possible in the first place. Thanks largely to communities like the superb Destiny subreddit, any player can easily find videos and guides to help them exploit the game. Bungie never stood a chance. [b]The more I play, the more it seems like the studio's determination to shut down players' unsanctioned fun is misguided. It also feels oddly insecure, like Bungie isn't confident that their game is fun enough on its own, that they worry that if players are able to play it "wrong," to exploit loopholes to get better gear, that they'll eventually max out their inventory and quit altogether.[/b] That is doubtless true for some players, but actually I haven't found it to be true for me. Yes, part of what drives me to keep playing is that lizard-brain thing where you just really want the rocket launcher that Crota drops and you still haven't beaten him with your hunter this week. But most of what keeps me playing are the very strengths that Bungie would claim Destiny embodies: I keep playing because I'm having fun and because I like hanging out with my teammates. [b]The most frustrating thing about all of this is that while Bungie scrambles to undo the work of Destiny's most industrious cheesers, they're leaving a number of actual, widespread problems unaddressed. For example: For months now, there's been a bug where any armor that increases your heavy ammo capacity causes you to lose precious heavy ammo every time you respawn. It's been unpatched for ages and is maddening.3132 When fighting Crota, there is a bug that causes the sword—a vital weapon—to simply disappear for no reason. There's another Crota bug that causes him to leap down from his platform and follow you onto the ground, killing your team about as quickly as an indestructible god would. More than once, that bug or the one before it, caused us to fail in an otherwise flawless battle. I tell you what, nothing gets me reaching for my LAN cable faster than a shitty bug undoing a flawless run against Crota. For at least a couple of months, the audio during the templar battle in the Vault of Glass would cut out. Bungie repeatedly patched and removed exploits from that battle, and yet the audio glitch remained. 3334 Plenty of other small bugs linger as well: chat cuts out in loading screens, Atheon's deadly imprisoning globes can sometimes follow you through his time-portals, you can get two identical items in the same drop in the Vault of Glass, exotic items won in the Vault lack the upgrades given to exotics everywhere else, the stats page at the end of missions doesn't actually seem to track your stats correctly, and on, and on.[/b] Bungie appears more concerned with squashing creative player exploits than they are with making sure their game works properly. Granted, there's an argument that making the game work properly involves the removal of exploits. But eventually Bungie is going to have to acquiesce to the fact that every time they patch a cheese, a new cheese will rise to take its place. Hopefully they'll begin to reprioritize and focus on making sure the game works well for those who don't want to farm exploits.[/quote] Taken from the Kotaku 4 month later review. You see Bungie, here's the thing. You can fix this sort of thing all you like, but all players will do is find another way to cheese, glitch and otherwise break your game. You need to focus on the numerous flaws with your game, add things and the like rather then attempt to fix people cheesing and the like, because all the time the game does not feel rewarding, all the time it feels like we are working AGIANST you, means players will keep looking for these exploits. And just to clarify, I enjoy this game. But if you spent time MAKING IT BETTER rather then trying to shut down the ways people break your game, it could be so much more. I recall you saying Destiny can be played your way. It seems more and more like it's Bungies way.[/quote] Yes they can
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I'm an avid cheeser myself, I how by next week a super cheese Comes out and I get full raid gear along with elemental primary weapons lol
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You are completely right; Bungie and Activision should be embarrassed.
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I am still confused on how people think cheesing is the right way to play the game but before I start this argument FCK YOU LITTLE PUSSY CRYING HATER 2 YEAR OLDS know that's off my chest let's begin. I'm not sure why bungie made this game rated T but I hope the saw all the little kids that can't play those Highly rated M games coming and ruining the Way REAL players play by crying NERF, or Buff my sucky gun that I like. Or by not doing things the way they were supposed to be played. I feel sorry for every god damn Amazing player that plays destiny the right way I hope we all meet one day and FCKING roast the next raid in FCKING 20 seconds :) and get amazing rewards Know let's put our thinking caps on if bungie did not fix these huge exploits no matter your thought process on it everyone would get the hardest Shit in the game and then end up thinking it's boring because it was such an easy way to get. Why in any right mind of bungles staff not fix this? Please I'm curious unless they have a staff of premature mindless idiots?
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Agreed. New Crota cheese will be discovered next week.
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4 RepliesI, for one, would love to see Bungie explain what the difference is between a player using the physics around the lanterns exploding to catapult themselves and players who create and delete multiple accounts of the same type to hit the max level. Both utilize in game systems, without external interference (unplugging a cable). Both were likely not how Bungie intended the game to be played and both allow a player to progress artificially far. Both also involve a lot of initial work as the player has to play through the original six hour campaign (most likely just get drug through in a few hours by max level friends) or the players have to discover and learn the actual lantern exploit. Seems to me you can exploit Destiny, so long as it's a Bungie approved way as defined based on how they feel not any real solid criteria.
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I love this post. Well I'm sure that there are several ways to cheese Atheon right?
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6 Repliesone word BANHAMMER if we didn't have so many people cheesing everything bungie might have time to explain why they don't have time to explain but if we all continue this cut one cheese another cheese rises we will get nowhere
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Bump.
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Alas, Bungie is the mother -blam!-ing Darkness!
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Boy you hit the nail on the head with this post.
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Amazing. Please bump this people. Bungie NEED TO READ THIS. Bring on The Division. Bye Bungie.
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I +1 all of this.
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So if I hack your Xbox and download the next Destiny it's just a creative way and should not be patched?
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Well said mister. Bump!
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2 RepliesGo play a game that has been truly tested and you will not fund abundances of "cheese" available. So on the contrary, you can "patch players". Go ahead and search for ways to cheese or cheat your way through a WoW raid, good luck.
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3 RepliesThe heavy ammo glitch needs to be fixed. It's inexcusable that they haven't already