[quote]You Can't Patch Players
In late September, Bungie closed the Loot Cave for business. They changed the spawn timer on the enemies in the cave, making it much more difficult to stand outside and gain experience and loot. It was the end of an era.
Or, well, no it wasn't. Shortly after that, players discovered a new loot cave. Bungie tweaked that one too, but a narrative had been established:
Players come up with an exploit.
Bungie patches it.
Players find a new exploit.
Soon, most players had moved on from Loot Caves to cheesing the weekly nightfall strikes and the raids, two much more complicated activities that, while difficult to complete, offered much better and more consistent rewards.
Like all cheese, Destiny's exploits come with an expiration date. For a time, it was possible to stand together on a podium and easily wipe out the Templar mid-boss of the Vault of Glass. Then Bungie patched the game to make that area out of bounds. After that, people figured out how to knock the Templar off of his platform using grenades. Eventually, Bungie patched that, too.
It was possible to do something similar to the raid's final boss Atheon, comically knocking the big dumb lunk off of a cliff with grenades. Then Bungie patched that. Players figured out how to arrange themselves into "home" and "away" teams for the Atheon battle—this approach wasn't even a cheese, we just thought it was how the battle was supposed to go—but Bungie patched that, too. These days, players can easily cheese the majority of the game's strikes and entire sections of Crota's End. Surely Bungie will patch all those, too.
Here's the thing, though: when it comes down to it, you can't patch players. We are talking about people who not only can pull something like throwing a boss of a cliff, they can also figure out that something like that is possible in the first place. Thanks largely to communities like the superb Destiny subreddit, any player can easily find videos and guides to help them exploit the game. Bungie never stood a chance.
[b]The more I play, the more it seems like the studio's determination to shut down players' unsanctioned fun is misguided. It also feels oddly insecure, like Bungie isn't confident that their game is fun enough on its own, that they worry that if players are able to play it "wrong," to exploit loopholes to get better gear, that they'll eventually max out their inventory and quit altogether.[/b]
That is doubtless true for some players, but actually I haven't found it to be true for me. Yes, part of what drives me to keep playing is that lizard-brain thing where you just really want the rocket launcher that Crota drops and you still haven't beaten him with your hunter this week. But most of what keeps me playing are the very strengths that Bungie would claim Destiny embodies: I keep playing because I'm having fun and because I like hanging out with my teammates.
[b]The most frustrating thing about all of this is that while Bungie scrambles to undo the work of Destiny's most industrious cheesers, they're leaving a number of actual, widespread problems unaddressed. For example:
For months now, there's been a bug where any armor that increases your heavy ammo capacity causes you to lose precious heavy ammo every time you respawn. It's been unpatched for ages and is maddening.3132
When fighting Crota, there is a bug that causes the sword—a vital weapon—to simply disappear for no reason.
There's another Crota bug that causes him to leap down from his platform and follow you onto the ground, killing your team about as quickly as an indestructible god would. More than once, that bug or the one before it, caused us to fail in an otherwise flawless battle. I tell you what, nothing gets me reaching for my LAN cable faster than a shitty bug undoing a flawless run against Crota.
For at least a couple of months, the audio during the templar battle in the Vault of Glass would cut out. Bungie repeatedly patched and removed exploits from that battle, and yet the audio glitch remained. 3334
Plenty of other small bugs linger as well: chat cuts out in loading screens, Atheon's deadly imprisoning globes can sometimes follow you through his time-portals, you can get two identical items in the same drop in the Vault of Glass, exotic items won in the Vault lack the upgrades given to exotics everywhere else, the stats page at the end of missions doesn't actually seem to track your stats correctly, and on, and on.[/b]
Bungie appears more concerned with squashing creative player exploits than they are with making sure their game works properly. Granted, there's an argument that making the game work properly involves the removal of exploits. But eventually Bungie is going to have to acquiesce to the fact that every time they patch a cheese, a new cheese will rise to take its place. Hopefully they'll begin to reprioritize and focus on making sure the game works well for those who don't want to farm exploits.[/quote]
Taken from the Kotaku 4 month later review.
You see Bungie, here's the thing. You can fix this sort of thing all you like, but all players will do is find another way to cheese, glitch and otherwise break your game. You need to focus on the numerous flaws with your game, add things and the like rather then attempt to fix people cheesing and the like, because all the time the game does not feel rewarding, all the time it feels like we are working AGIANST you, means players will keep looking for these exploits.
And just to clarify, I enjoy this game. But if you spent time MAKING IT BETTER rather then trying to shut down the ways people break your game, it could be so much more.
I recall you saying Destiny can be played your way. It seems more and more like it's Bungies way.
EDIT: The moment the game is patched to fix the cheeses, new Crota's End cheeses are found. Point Proven: YOU CAN'T PATCH PLAYERS
[b]And to clarify: I'm not trying to justify cheesing or cheating or whatever you want to call it.[/b] I'm saying Bungie priorities should be improving the rest of/features of the game and fixing bugs that affect gameplay in a more negative way..
English
#Destiny
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2 RepliesWho else just scrolled down and ignored everything because it was too long? Lol.
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34 RepliesMy god, posts like this make me ashamed to be part of this community. Really, all that wasted text just to try and justify cheating, and yes cheesing is cheating. Every time I bring new people into the raid (which I don't cheese btw... i find it actually FUN, yes FUN a word most of you seem to have forgotten) these people have NO IDEA what they are doing. The guy we played with last night actually hadn't done the raid legit at any part. REALLY!? It's beyond easy to do the entire thing legit, but because this community wants everything handed to them NO ONE has taken the time to learn the raid. This whole "Oh we have to do it bungies way waaaahhhh" attitude is sickening. THere are multiple strategys and ways to do the raid legit, cheating is not doing it your way, it's taking the easy effortless route. Thank god they are fixing the cheese's for hard mode, and thank god they are claiming the next raid to be uncheeseable (which i doubt will be, but i'm sure will be much harder than the previous two raids) How about this, instead of spending all your time crying like a child because you won't be able to cheat any more, you take that time to learn how to do the raid properly, like the rest of us did.
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13 RepliesCouldn't disagree with this more. First off, there's a huge difference between glitching and "playing the game how I want" and you're pretty dense if you can't see the line. Also all of the issues he mentions (heavy ammo, audio in vog etc) are imo much less important than fixing how easily glitchable the raids have been. I'd rather have a cheese proof raid with audio going in and out than perfect audio and no one wanting to actually play the mechanics of the game. Call me a fanboy or whatever insulting terms haters use against people who actually enjoy the game but I appreciate the effort by the devs to get these obvious glitches fixed in a prompt manner.
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1 ReplyBump for this guy. Couldn't be any more right. They are way too concerned with everyone playing the game EXACTLY how they want when they need to be more focused on fixing the actual issues. I'm all for fixing cheeses but fix more important things too... like, of course they aren't fixing any bugs in the crota fight that make it harder... if a bug makes an encounter more difficult, bungie pays it no attention. Didn't see any mention of them fixing crota's drop down and -blam!- everybody bug.... why? Cuz they know if that happens during the fight, they just artificially increased the longevity of the game.... aka, the same scam they been pulling on everybody since day 1...
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That last thing you said, could never be truer. They say that you are supposed to find new and creative ways to play it the way that suits you. Yet they patch and nerf everything, except what's actually broken, forcing you into a bottleneck play-style as is a similar attribute to nearly everything else. To beat this level/strike/raid, you must do it THIS way. To reach this rank, you must wear THIS armor. Etc, etc...
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EDIT: The moment the game is patched to fix the cheeses, new Crota's End cheeses are found. Point Proven: YOU CAN'T PATCH PLAYERS [b]And to clarify: I'm not trying to justify cheesing or cheating or whatever you want to call it.[/b] I'm saying Bungie priorities should be improving the rest of/ features of the game and fixing bugs that affect gameplay in a more negative way like the ones above.
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Your list of "actual, widespread problems unaddressed" is a poor argument against cheating. That's all you're trying to justify. Cheating.
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2 RepliesEdited by U6072034: 1/11/2015 8:48:49 PMGood Sir, you have captured the main issues within the paradigm of the raid transitioning stage, and disentangle the ludicrous paradox of this 'cheesing' process, by disassembling the very infrastructure built to obliterate the concept of 'fun' or 'enjoyment', and thus causing a slow trepidation within the most remote units of Bungie, extruding the pseudocodes that Bungie extradite on [i]us,[/i] the monogamous consumer of a falsely advertised computerised electronic game.
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1 ReplyI agree! I was so mad when the crota cheeses were fixed but the white nail perk on black hammer was not fixed. Fixing cheeses didn't really affect me since I prefer the legit method, its more fun, but why was that prioritized over fixing black hammer?
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7 RepliesEdited by ChromeDome: 1/10/2015 4:42:46 PMThe main problem is that they nerf you so hard against lower level adversaries you never feel "legend". As a level 31 I can be swarmed and taken out by level 6 thralls. What would have happened to me as a level 6 guardian if I had confronted a level 31 thrall? Immediate death and not 1 mm off his lifebar, that's what. I think they probably did it as a misguided way to keep high level players from speed running friends through the game. But those first 20 levels are just a chore anyway that takes at most 2-3 days of play. Why not let us have high level characters that feel like high levels. That's what fun about RPGs. You level up against low levels characters then destroy high level ones. We've been deprived of that so people look for ways to make it artificially easier.
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Bump deej. Enough's enough.
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Great post. Bungie seems intent on stopping players playing the game in their own way. Even though it was something they bragged about pre-release. And it's very obvious why. They are stretching out gameplay until the next DLC. Provide as little as possible and make that last as long as possible. It's a hamster wheel. Bungie? For gods sake undo your "fix" on the gold public event rewards. You have another part of the game defunct. And it's pretty obvious why you love PVP, Iron Banner etc. it takes very little new material from you. same levels used over and over, with slightly different mechanics. We keep ourselves occupied. Yawn
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You are absolutely correct. Everyone should play the game they paid good money for the way it makes it fun for them. I have put a lot of time into this game and only recently started to raid. Cheese or not I don't care I just want to enjoy the game. Bungie have basically made us unpaid play testers and then they don't like that we've found ways that there paid people didn't think of. This is my first foray into online gaming and it's been fun in general. Only issue is the "elitist" crap being spouted by so many on the forums. We all want to raid, it's not your members only area.
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Funny thing is, if the loot system wasn't so broken, no one would havea reason to "cheese" in the first place. Same reason why people were doing the loot caves. Same reason why me and many other people rush Vangaurd strikes. No one wants to deal with this system.
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I'm glad the patches were made. Fun while they lasted but it's annoying when the end game content becomes something so trivial and when most people haven't been able to actually finish it legitimately at all.
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Bump.
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Let's not forget the Crota bug of getting up from kneeling and killing sword dude in .0002 seconds. Hate that one.
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2 RepliesI thought you were supposed to lose heavy ammo...
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Dude, what the -blam!-? Do you have any idea how much time and effort is and was spent on creating, maintaining, and writing code for this or any other game? They already spend hours just trying to stay ahead by theorizing: How could this be exploited? Is there something we're missing? And yet, their numbers and amount of ideas are so small in comparison to the millions of players who incidentally or intentionally find exploits and loopholes. Bust their balls so they work harder, but damn, give them a break too.
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6 RepliesLong story short, this new generation of "gamers" ( I use the term very loosely ) are lazy. It's not called grinding for nothing. I know it's hard for you squeakers to believe but it is actually fun to play the game the way it was meant to be played. Why would you pay $80-$100 dollars to play Mr Dressup? Because in essence that is what you are doing. It's like buying a Nintendo game and slapping the game genie on it as soon as you get home and enabling infinite ammo health and armor. I will never understand it. Of course you will respond with " don't tell me how to play, I will play this game how I want". But you aren't really playing are you?
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4 RepliesEdited by FEEDBACK DEMON: 1/10/2015 4:09:07 PMYou can't change human nature. If you put the same obsticle/problem in front of a person enough times they will eventually find away to make it easier or quicker. Thats why football players do agility excercises, body builders have core lifts, racecar drivers do practice runs and qualifications. If you have people do the same things over and over, they will find a way to; 1. Do it faster 2. Make it easier 3. Maximize the work-reward system Bungie needs to stop thinking it can police human nature. I'd like to add that this "cheesing" method also makes it more sociable, less robotic and much more laid back.
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I read half, got bored. Think they should give weekly bans for people who exploit. Takes effect reset of the next Tuesday and lasts a full week. Sure you can still cheese, but this way it's only 1 week of loot instead of two. If no one gets punished the vicious cycle just repeats. If no one ever gets punished everyone will keep doing it.
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Bump. I agree.
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I honestly thought this was either A young girls puberty video Or a motivational segment for old people
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1 ReplyIt really does feel like Bungie just wants to push us down their narrow path of "how to play the game". I agree with most of their cheese fixes, but sometimes it seems like they didn't realize players might wonder off the path and try to do things different. Each time we find something that isn't "on the path" Bungie turns petulant and "fixes" it. I feel they held back hard mode on CE just to find out how we actually play it so they can patch all the fun out.
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I like this quote about why players cheese "It's like pulling off a band aid. It's gonna hurt, so might as well make it quick " It's a good analogy in my eyes. The loot system could work a lot better, making the journey through raids worth while. Now people don't have the choice but to run it legitimatly (until new cheeses are found) i only hope they fix the loot system. Even if you had to run that vog 5 times, if you were guaranteed usefull loot at the end, it would be worth it and people would work through it knowing there was a worthy reward for their efforts. And more so, they would feel that they earned it and it would feel much more rewarding.