Just going to post a little history here of efforts to preserve the Destiny experience that everyone now wants to go back to. For those forgetting the past, these posts were not close to the norm and for every one asking to preserve Destiny's unique play, there were hundreds more screaming for nerfs. I 100% put a huge onus on Bungie for capitulating and for not believing in the system they created; but I'm sorry, the community doesn't get a pass on this. Destiny 2 is without question the result of 3 years of player feedback whether we want to accept that or not. I didn't want to end up here. I thought HoW was close to perfection. But by the end of year 2 and through year 3, it was obvious that the game we had was gone and something had to change. D2 Is a stable foundation. It can be better. It needs to be better and the difference between the games is that in D2 things can get more powerful and we can hopefully build back up to where the game was. D1 could only go backwards. It's also a reminder to the Trials crowd, who were more responsible than anyone for what D2 became and now pretend to be victims when they don't like the game they begged for. [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/114553028/0/0]@DeeJ. An honest look at & feedback on buffs & nerfs & how to fix your game.[/url] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/127665451/0/0]Dumbo's Feather and the Great "OP Thorn" Myth.[/url] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/140451908/0/0]Paint by numbers: My Guardian can't be a master (killing) craftsman if you keep nerfing his tools.[/url] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/142442474/0/0]Smoke and Mirrors: The Art of the Nerf (Who are you really balancing for, Bungie?[/url] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/141911711?sort=0&page=0]Mayhem! Nerfing in The Taken King: Will weapon nerf culture lead to the demise of our abilities?[/url] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/139768540/0/0]An open letter to Jon Weisnewski, before you ruin Blink too.[/url] [url=https://youtu.be/SMhC2NAxgxA]Nerf Madness![/url] [url=https://youtu.be/8E7_fOWm73s]Hammer of Sol, The Reality[/url] [url=https://youtu.be/yQIlEoEDTlE]Proof Titans and Warlocks are OP (Satire response to Datto[/url] [url=https://youtu.be/iflr06bWfio] How to Make Friends with Warlocks and Win at Destiny... With the Worst Weapon Class in the Game[/url]

I give you kudos for even entertaining this broken record of Weapon loadout complaints. My TLDR on it is this: A) It's not [u]2 Primaries[/u] it's Kinetic and Energy and both where designed for different purposes. Anyone calling it the former is willfully not using the system [u]as designed[/u] and is going to then dislike it and fail. B) I have only ever run out of power ammo maybe twice and that was before they increased the drop rate. So the availability issue is nill. C) I find that the only people that are really complaining about special weapons in pvp are those that abused the 1HK potential. Something that Bungie was always trying to fix. PVP is a better place with them limited. D) Bottom line as you have explained (and I have many times) is that the core design of the game, especially when concerning pvp, could not support what the players were turning it into AND keep the gameplay vision they wanted. The changes we see today would have happened regardless. Either by shoe horning then into a platform that couldn't really sustain it or into a redesign that was built around it.

Sols I agree with allot. However I think the real issue is some players want weapons or gear that makes them special. Like having Ghorn yr one. You needed it for almost all raids and Skolas.. no Ghorn no play... They want that Fatebringer.. they want to be the guardian that ppl follow around the tower oohhh and ahhh over. Right now D2 has nothing like that. This is also why players wanted exotics to be hard to get. Not exactly special if everyone has them. Players bitch about meanigful end game. VoG was a requirement for max level..and RNG was horrible. So you had a small pool of players with a full set. It wasnt the perks that made it special. Players want that golden ticket ..

I’ve been trying to come up with a meaningful response to this post but, honestly all I can really say is thanks. This whole ordeal actually began as our initial disagreement, sometimes passionately so, but somehow we’ve come full circle. I feel that this view is sorely under represented on the forums. I have hope for the future, that’s not a popular sentiment. I can see that you do as well, and for that you are brave. Brave to say what is unpopular.

I've discussed this before, I don't think the solution to weapon economy issues in Destiny 2 is to revert back to the system we had in Destiny 1. I do think the solution can be found in giving each weapon slot its own unique identity. Kinetic: since these are the weapons we see the most, or at least should see the most, I feel like they should be a bit more dynamic. If you give me a gun and say "you're going to be using this a lot" then it shouldn't make me feel like I'm whittling away at things. I would like for bullet modifications "High Cal, Ricochet" to become intrinsic perks, or even put them on every primary as a selectable perk and let players choose, while we bring back more powerful perks "Hidden Hand, Range Finder, Luck in the Chamber" and put those on weapons. Energy: We need more weapons like Coldheart. There, I said it. Right now the majority of energy weapons are just primary weapons with burns. That's not good, at least to me. Energy weapons seem weak because they're just primaries. Make them recharge ammo overtime, let them bypass shields completely, just make them do something outside of "oh, it breaks shields, why aren't I just using this the whole time." Energy weapons just kind of lack an identity to me. Power: Legend of Acrius, Merciless, these weapons have one thing in common, they hit like trucks. I have no issue with shotguns, snipers and even fusions being heavy weaponry, just make them feel "heavy" if you're gonna take something from me and move it to the same slot as a rocket launcher, I want to annihilate anything I point the gun at. Just my thoughts on the whole issue of weapons.

Downvoted. v

I'm not good enough at Destiny to make an informed opinion.

You realize that you not using special weapons or a variety on D1 is more a mistake on your part then it being irrelevant to everyone right? I think you'll find many who found snipers+raze lighter very useful, or shotguns and rockets. The fact is you don't need 2 primaries. There's not really any content you'd ever need two primaries for. A primary for mobs, special for yellow bars or additional boss dps and heavy for bosses. Vs Primary and primary for mobs and heavy to be split between bosses and majors. Vosik is a prime example of how good variety was - I did one of 2 things there. A) Event horizon and dark drinker, use drinker to take out captains and snipe vosik at damage. B) Full auto void comedian (final round) to kill captains (blasting away with it was great) and sleeper to dps. Loved that Say what you will in PvP - for pve it was and is a horrible change.

Here's my opinion on the matter. In most of PvE, the 2 primary system doesn't make a huge difference, it's just long bosses that get boring with the system because plinking a boss away with a Destiny primary across the entire game is dull. I could use power ammo, but it dries up quickly in my experience. In terms of the purpose of the 2 primaries you have, they're slightly different in one aspect, that being damage against shields/PvP supers. Elementals get less of a penalty against PvP supers and more damage against elemental shields in PvE. Otherwise they feel almost exactly the same, suckass weapons is a bit strong but they're significantly weaker than what is in your other slot(s). Then there's the gaping problem with the power slot; there isn't a point to using ex-specials. They're too situational and overall weak to be comparable to rockets, he certainly why they were secondaries in D1, to provide an extremely specialized weapon that could bridge the gap against a heavy in a specific scenario. They're by design too specialized and not versitale enough for a heavy, limited slot. D1 had your general purpose, slightly specialized, overall weaker weapon with a weapon that could be extremely powerful in a certain situation (unless we talk sidearms, those are meant to be actual secondary weapons), and an extremely powerful general purpose weapon. D2 gives me a general purpose, overall weaker weapon with slight specialization, a second one but with more damage to shields and less damage to non-shields, and a choice between an extremely specialized powerful weapon, or a general purpose powerful weapon. Destiny's weapon design in terms of specials was just flat out not built for 2 primaries and a special/heavy, it was built for primary special heavy.

“Vigilance Wing, Sunshot, Coldheart, MIDA, Sweet Business, Graviton Lance, Nameless Midnight, Call to Serve, Antiope D, Last Hope, True Prophecy, Better Devils, Origin Story, Cuboid ARu, Martyr's Make, Uriel's Gift, Ghost Primus, Armillary Psu, Scathelocke, Pleiades Corrector, Manannan SR4, Nergal PR4, Risk Runner. All weapons I have mostly on my characters (and a few in my vault). I have used most of them extensively and regularly switch between many because I enjoy them all. Through 3 years of D1, in PvE I basically used Crimson Dragon, MIDA, B-Line Trauma, Plug One, LDR 5001, Coiled Hiss, NA3D1 Salvation State, Thesan FR4, Hung Jury, Grasp of Malok, Last Extremity, Funky Steel Medulla, Chaos Dogma and Y3 Vision of Confluence. That's it.” I want to highlight this part of your post. For D1, I used all the weapons you named, plus: Fatebringer, Found Verdict, Hezen Vengeance, Corrective Measure, Word of Crota, Hunger of Crota, Black Hammer/Spindle, Swordbreaker, 4th Horseman, Vex Mythoclast, Lord of Wolves, Queenbreaker’s Bow, The Chaperone, Fabian Strategy, Quillus’ Terminus, Does Not Bow, Thunderlord, Touch of Malice, Nemesis Star, Parthian Shot, If Materia, Quantiplasm, pre-nerf Truth, And Outbreak Prime. And those off the top of my head. For PvE My D2 loadout only insists of Nameless Midnight, Antiope D, Negral PR4, Uriel’s Gift, and Legend of Acrius. I had far more diversity in D1 than I ever had in D2. D1’s loadout made sure I had something for every situation. I’m much more restricted in D2. And needless to say, I agree wholeheartedly with Slayerage.

I don’t even know who the -blam!- either of you are. 😒

The two primary weapon system just makes the game too boring to play for me...

I'm not going to bash you or say your opinion is invalid. Bungie has made alot of mistakes. I don't think they will keep their promise of keeping the communication open or try and fix what people have been complaining about. Just my 2 cents.

You're always super pro bungie. You need to stop. You're not helping us. Please, just stop

The best gear should come from the hardest content.

[quote] Suck ass weapons include ARs, Hand Cannons, Scouts, Pulse Rifles, Submachine Guns [and Fighting Lion][/quote] Vigilance Wing, Sunshot, Coldheart, MIDA, Sweet Business, Graviton Lance, Nameless Midnight, Call to Serve, Antiope D, Last Hope, True Prophecy, Better Devils, Origin Story, Cuboid ARu, Martyr's Make, Uriel's Gift, Ghost Primus, Armillary Psu, Scathelocke, Pleiades Corrector, Manannan SR4, Nergal PR4, Risk Runner. All weapons I have mostly on my characters (and a few in my vault). I have used most of them extensively and regularly switch between many because I enjoy them all. Through 3 years of D1, in PvE I basically used Cryptic Dragon, MIDA, B-Line Trauma, Plug One, LDR 5001, Coiled Hiss, NA3D1 Salvation State, Thesan FR4, Hung Jury, Grasp of Malok, Last Extremity, Funky Steel Medulla, Chaos Dogma and Y3 Vision of Confluence. That's it. Throw in heavy and you can expand it to Truth, Gjally, Thunderlord, Baron's Ambition, All 3 exotic swords and the Spartan Laser (on Atheon) 3 years. Not a lot of diversity. [quote]Based on nomenclature, you can't have 2 primary weapons. You can't use 2 things primarily.[/quote] They were called primary weapons because they were the weapons we used the most. As beloved as any special or heavy weapon was in D1, they accounted for a relatively small percentage of actual use throughout PvE encounters. By your definition, you are correct. We can't use 2 things primarily, hence them not being called Primary weapons any longer. That said, the new system allows us to have more variety in use of the weapon classes we used by far the most in D1, but were limited to only using one of. [quote]Special weapons in D1 were able to compete with heavy weapons, but with less versatile efficacy. Meanwhile D1 heavy weapons were incredibly versatile... but the point to be made is that the heavy weapon slot offered the opportunity to use the weapon that was the best weapon in your loadout, clearly outperforming both your primary and special in almost every case.[/quote] What you're not taking into account is that in both D1 and D2, the only real need for the special/heavy then and power now is yellow bars, shielded enemies, bosses and picking off enemies at a distance. But then (as now) the heavy weapon was clearly superior for doing that and in most cases outside of the raids and (at least year one) D1's famous "hide and snipe'' strikes, there really wasn't a situation where you needed both special and heavy at once. I'm not saying everyone played like I did, but once I got Boltcaster there was really no need to ever use a special weapon unless it was the best dps for a boss. AND of all the special weapons in D1, only sniper rifles were really relevant in PvE anyway. Not a lot of people were running Fusions and Shotguns in endgame PvE and especially not high level endgame. [quote]Special weapons began to go downhill when they needed to be brought down to the level of [sidearms][/quote] Actually it had absolutely nothing to do with the introduction of sidearms.. Shotguns began to go downhill with the dominance of slide+shotgun in the crucible and then with Felwinters + range finder or shot package. Shotguns were nerfed how many times in D1? Fusions were first nerfed in 1.1.1 long before sidearms existed. Snipers were nerfed because they were too dominant in PvP thanks to other nerfs. The simple truth of the matter is that in all reality special weapons were doomed the moment primary weapons began their backwards power progression. Eventually it led to anything capable of a OHK being the best option for any encounter. We could go for days about all the intricacies of the decline including how the death of damage over time played into everything, but that's a long story. Also ammo regenerating weapons and specials equippable as primaries were a mechanic that bit Bungie in the ass and broke balance in ways they could never correct. [quote]The single biggest problem of the new system is that it causes utter devastation to gameplay variety.[/quote] I understand this to be a real issue for a lot of players, but you have to be able to acknowledge that it has significantly broadened gameplay variety for others. Just looking at the weapons I listed D1 and D2, there are no hand cannons listed for D1. I probably had less than 200 kills TOTAL with them over 3 years. And in any era, once I found my primary of choice, I was locked in and if I was using a Scout, there wasn't much using anything else. Chaos Dogma was my weapon be it strikes, patrol, raids or events like Archon Forge. For me D2 has been a revelation. I have and do use all manner of combinations regularly (though Pulse rifles besides VW and high impact scouts could use some love) and I enjoy all of them. In D1 I never would have gotten to experience the weapons I do now. [quote]Rockets are currently the best weapon for virtually any situation[/quote] Gjallerhorn pre-nerf (hence the nerf) [quote]In D1, Bungie made the decision to put snipers and shotguns in a different class than rockets because they are more specialized. If snipers and rockets are both consistent options, you have to put them in separate slots because if you don't, the weapon with the most obvious disadvantages will wind up being virtually useless.[/quote] I understand your frustration in some situation like boss encounters in D2 (though primarily in strikes because Calus can be one-phased pretty easily). I would counter your point by saying that those situations where snipers and shotguns were not only both consistent options, but both necessary were extremely rare. I would also say that the issue isn't so much in both weapons being in the power slot now as it is (like you said) that rockets and swords are just the better options with the current weapons, but that could easily be fixed by giving shotguns and snipers advantages that rockets don't have. I would start by significantly upping the ammo reserves for snipers, shotguns and fusion rifles. They may not do as much damage as rockets, but giving them the ability to be used longer in-between ammo drops would make them a genuinely desirable option in MANY aspects of D2 PvE. It also doesn't have to just be more ammo and the ability to kill more yellow bars before running out (or more potential damage long term vs a rockets burst damage) either. Bungie have a lot of brilliant people working for them and I know they can come up with other ways to make other power weapons stand out and we'll still have rockets for the situations that call for them (Calus). [quote]The new system destroys gameplay variety... all it takes is a few fights against bosses where you're out of your limited power ammo to see how lame it is to tickle a boss with an AR[/quote] Am I the only one that remembers spending more time sitting waiting for ammo synths to pop than actually fighting enemies in D1 endgame content? Did year one Nightfalls, Crota's End, etc not happen? All joking about the painful ammo-less past aside, in those situations where we were stuck with a choice of either Special or heavy (just like now) because we could only pop synths for one or the other; it led to deciding if you needed more prolonged attacks (clearing more enemies) or hitting as hard as we could (bosses). So in reality we had the [b]exact same choice[/b] much of the time in D1, but the difference was that our snipers, shotguns and fusions were better options because of their ability to take out significantly more ads because their reserve ammo was double what it is now. Hence, give them more ammo. [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/239419042/0/0/1]Part Two[/url]

If AC Slayerage was AC Slater, you would be Screech.

I personally agree with sc_Slayerage. Since the first time I play D2...I can feel the D2 weapon setup stupidity. I think sc_Slayerage is just representing majority of Destiny player in PVE. In PVP...I don't mind D2 weapon setup...I don't use weapon anyway..I equip MIDA just to make me run fast to find the opponents because it wasting my age to run in a big map just find opponents in PVP.

I don’t want diversity. I want a year 1 Vision. A year one Black Hammer. And the Ghorn. That will do me for another 3 years. Thanks.