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7/25/2017 8:38:01 PM
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The Design Philosophy of Destiny 2, and who this game is really for....

[b]"Destiny 2 is a convergence of veteran players, just like you, and new players into our Universe" -Luke Smith, Game Director, at the D2 reveal.[/b] These were the first words spoken by Luke Smith, and the first sign of bad things to come for actual Destiny players. Followed shortly thereafter by [b]"....if you are a competitive player, we've re-thought the Crucible from first principles, we're moving ALL activities in PVP to 4v4, we've rebuilt the sandbox in a bunch of ways, to 'smaller team formats'. We've done this because we want to create a sense of mastery. In order to master anything, you need to be able to understand it."[/b] Feeling insulted yet? Luke Smith didn't think that we understood the principles behind Destiny 1's PvP and that making the maps smaller, with less players and forcing weak primary weapons into our hands somehow made it "easier to understand". Never mind that there were ZERO tutorials in Destiny1 to explain ANYTHING from weapon perks to Crucible strategy to effective counters... we didn't understand it, apparently, even though most of us figured this stuff out without those tutorials. Enter Steve Cotton, the World Lead Designer: [b]".... i have 2 kids, and just like you guys, they play Destiny a lot.... (he goes on to talk about how 1 kid likes lone wolf play and patrolling the wilds, the other likes crucible and raiding with a clan).... The point is, there's a lot to do in Destiny and its this variety that can appeal to all of us", right? in any type of mood that we're in. [/b] Oh boy.... bad sign? Stay with me here.... Cotton goes on after mentioning a few activities: [b]And then there is the Crucible... we've made some big changes.... we're building it for "PvP Players". Its now 4v4 across all game modes (very sparse applause... people seem shell shocked hearing this in the crowd).[/b] He mentions HUD changes that inform you of certain aspects of enemy readiness... then: [b]... to make it an experience thats easy to get into, but its hard to master.[/b] LOL? Team shooting as a mastery technique? LOL again. He waits for applause, people don't know that this is time to applause. Its awkward. [b]So we've got new maps, new modes and we believe this is the best PvP offering that Destiny has ever seen.[/b] After playing this Beta, most of us know that its completely false. He goes on to talk about some actual promising things such as the new activities and the new worlds we will have to explore. Enter M.E Chung, Social lead: after telling us about the positives of the community and how the game has helped us make connections with people across the world, which in my opinion IS the best of what D1 offered, although it was a challenge to break through that barrier in the early goings and find a group to raid with due the lack of in game matchmaking, she goes on to talk about their solutions to that: They have half-fixed that with Guided games, a point that i am neutral to. Then she announces "shared rewards for being in a clan"-----> participation awards for not even having to participate. So your time spent in the game rewards the people that don't have to participate..... wow. I can't even imagine how this is going to go down, as we know that some people don't put the time in to earn rewards. It gives incentives to be in a clan, but not actually participate. Not sure yet if this all that bad, but.... Who is this design for? We're getting there..... Mark Noseworthy then comes on to bridge the gap between Bungie and Activision and introduces the Activision CEO Eric Hirshberg: he pumps up Bungie, then pumps up Sony, ignores xbox (wtf?) and mentions the new PC platform for the game. He intros the Blizzard CEO and he explains the way D2 will be delivered to to PC players..... then the hand-picked crowd of streamers and Youtubers rolls over to go play the Beta of D2. The same build that we just played in the beta, that NONE of them properly assessed before the beta dropped this past week. Still trying to figure out where i am going with this? Sorry, but there's more to address first. Now onto Deej... our impenetrable source of sweaty upper-lip-service in an E3 interview with Rooster Teeth: Interviwer asks "what was the decision like to move to 4v4?". [b]Deej: "The crucible has always been a pretty chaotic environment with these 6v6 engagements.... we wanted to create a stronger sense of discipline and focus so that its a more WATCHABLE experience. Its something that you can follow as a spectator or learn from as a combatent..... and at the end of a match, even if you got your ass kicked, you are gonna know exactly how that went down.[/b] Really? Is this why the after report now doesn't tell you how many kills you've had, but instead lumps kills and assists together as "defeated"? Oh and that "watchable" bit? That's code word for we're trying super hard to make this an Esport. Deej goes on [b]"... not to say that we want to make it LESS FUN, but we wanted to make it fun in a way that is learnable."[/b] Holy mother of god.... did i hear that right? yup. Enter Laars Baaken in IGN video revealing Control and its changes: while explaining the new Control mechanics [b]....Everything in Destiny 2 has been SIMPLIFIED..... [/b] Really? A simple game has been made more simplified? What the literal fvkc? The interviewer asks a little later "....you had to make sacrifices for smaller team sizes, how do you make those decisions?" [b]Baaken resonds: "it comes down to, not only making it more competitve, but making it more learnable and understandable and team size definately came out of that.... it consiladtes the space down and makes it more understandable for you as a player."[/b] So... where am i going with all of this? If you are wondering why The Darkness has been replaced with Gary, or Control Zones no longer need to be neutralized, or you have 2 primaries in your loadout or time-to-kill has been so drastically increased, or why the subclasses all feel pretty similar and weakened, or many of the other baffling design choices that these developers have made.... go thorough all of these videos, even the ones that i don't mention, and pick out the buzzwords like "ACCESSIBLE" and you will soon realize that all of this stuff is done not with the actual Destiny player in mind.... its done FOR KIDS. Its done for CASUALS. Its done for critics who reviewed the game poorly, its done for that sweet sweet loot.... but not the random god roll type of loot, but for the cold hard cash that Bungievision hopes to make off of this watered down, SIMPLIFIED, easily learn-able dud of a sequel. This game isn't made for Guardians... its made for kids. Its written all over the wall and in between the cracks of their logic. My only solution that i can offer is that THEY DELAY THIS GAME FOR NO LESS THAN 6 MONTHS to redesign the many factors that are alienating the core playerbase, cause its obvious that the PHILOSOPHY isn't a more focused plan, but a plan to try to appeal to all types of gamers, just not the ones that kept the 3 year Beta afloat with constant play and constant feedback. TLDR: When you try to make a game for everyone, you end up making it for NO ONE. One more thought: If you had no intention of shipping the game to play like this, then why did you give us a beta with outdated tuning? I for one, do not buy the answer in the TWAB of "yeah we were gonna change it anyway so, thanks for your feedback but we are ahead of you." Nah bro.... some simple minded folks might be able to accept that answer, but anyone with a little bit of awareness can tell that you are in full force damage control, and doing a terrible job of it. For me.... a dude who put in a stupid amount of hours to D1, this new game is NO BUY, because your Beta reinforced all the things i saw coming from a mile away. The freaking Ghost is now the JAR JAR BINKS of the destiny universe. Have you no shame?
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  • Edited by Crota bin Oryx: 7/26/2017 6:49:23 AM
    Bungie fanboys and apologists will eat you alive... You have been warned! Just realized that the whole post makes equal sense if you replace 'kids' with 'streamers' or 'youtubers'. ✌

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    • Edited by adam3ros: 7/26/2017 2:10:22 AM
      I've posted on a few other threads about this... I agee with the "wtf?".attitude toward 4v4 PvP. I also play Battlefield 1, with large maps, and 64v64 battles, in a beautifully detailed world, at 60fps and deformable terain and destructable buildings.This lets us know what is posible. Now look at D2... Still 30fps, now just 4v4 battles, and a static environment. I don't know if Bungie has hit limit with their graphics engine, but it is very disappointing. That is not to say game play is not fun. It is fun. but it could be so much more. I had hoped that we might get 8v8or 10v10 battles. The new net code was supposed to be more robust and help reduce lag, and I had hoped for bigger fights on bigger maps. With how they reduced the player count, I can't help but wonder if the new net code is not as robust as they hyped/hoped.

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      • I agree with everything you have said in this well thought out, constructive post. Sadly it will fall on death ears at Bungie. All they understand is money.......that's why I have cancelled my pre order. It's literally all I or anyone else can do. If you are unhappy with what you were presented with in the D2 beta then cancel your pre orders guys. I hated the changes that we made so Bungie won't get my £90.

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      • I have a feeling that they're going to give us a 2nd round of beta just before release with alot of things changed from the feedback begging the people that cancelled their pre-orders to give them another chance.

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      • I see a lot of arguments that are centered around an increase of ease-of-use leading to less mastery ,leading to more people being able to be good and the skill-gap narrowing. But in practice, that's not what we're getting. It's an invalid argument to think the two are correlated in that way. There are greater levels of mastery, it's like a gain knob.. if you turn it down the delta between the smallest sound and greatest sound becomes bigger, not smaller.

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      • Edited by cuzzybubba1: 7/26/2017 7:38:13 PM
        Nothing is more hysterical than the participation trophies via medals they hand out.. shoot 3 guys once and they all get actually killed by someone else and you get a triple down it's unreal.

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        • All you guys are spreading negativity like wild fire and still have only played the Beta. How hilarious. The full game isn't even out. No one knows how it will play. And you pull a few quotes out of context and expect to rally up haters? Well, good for you. Leave, don't play the game. An FPS game should never cater to individuals who don't want to compete. To sweat. PvP is designed for your team to win. Winning is fun for most. If that isn't fun, then play PvE. Or play something else. No one cares. D2 will be fine without you.

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        • bpe

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        • Its aimed at the dumbest gamers out there, unfortunately there seems to be quite a lot of them haha

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        • No offense to anyone but you guys do overreact and misinterpret literally everything most of things they've done have been justified yet most can't wrap their heads around it.

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          • Oh lord, a game developer wants their game to be accessible to casual gamers? Say it ain't so. Why would they spend millions of dollars and countless man-hours in a profit driven industry and [i]not[/i] design it to be exclusively for enthusiasts? The gaul! I can't believe you took the time to write all of that. More importantly, I can't believe I read it. I hope you aren't a fertile adult.

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            • "wow. I can't even imagine how this is going to go down, as we know that some people don't put the time in to earn rewards." Exactly, WoW. As in World of Warcraft guilds, which have perks for all members based on group achievements. It's only a matter of time before Bungie is wholly subsumed by Activision.

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            • I'm just gonna disagree. The crucible is now a far more hardcore experience and it will require new mastery. I don't really like the lack of class build, but that is subject to change, and bungie stated that in a post on this app.

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            • You don't need to team shoot to win games. It is strong but not at all necessary. I have had plenty of solo engagements and 1v2 engagements. The difference now is that it actually takes skill to get those sick multi kills. You wanna play aggressive? You better know wtf you are doing. Hence the sense of mastery.

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            • Destiny has failed so many times it's atrocious. The fact they didn't use one button with a radial menu for dance moves (not like I give a -blam!- if they exist anyway but the fact they take up four spots is absolutely unacceptable) and use the other three for something that would actually enhance the gaming experience shows how ridiculous this game is. Destiny has some of the most fluid gameplay around, it's spectacular. That being said soooo many other things are terrible. Destiny has the best coders and the worst designers imo.

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            • Word for word u nailed it on the head!

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            • I think this is an amazing summary and I applaud your willingness to subject yourself to a mountain of salt. I too grinded the living sh!t out of D1 and I have to agree, this sequel is just so... kiddish. I feel weird playing it. And kudos for the Jar Jar Binks comment. I fuking hate Nolanbot from the depths of my soul. This is a big failure so far. I'm still mustering up the will power to cancel my pre-order, but the denial/addiction center of my brain that D1 primed so perfectly is making me hesitate like Gollum having a crack fit over his precious. Eesh.

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            • So the setups are simplified with kids in mind. It is a teen game. When vanilla launched the average age was around 30, I'd say it's vastly lower now. Probably very few of us old gamers. These changes don't really come into play in elimination style PvP where it's skill and teamwork based. There is no easy mode and there's nothing Bungie can do to even the playing field because all that can be done to reduce the skill gap is practice.

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            • If I remember right it seems like there were about 230,000 pre orders before beta release. I would love to know what those numbers are now.

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              • Well said. The unfortunate truth.

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              • Everything that made Destiny a unique game will be destroyed in Destiny 2. The abilities of each subclass of each character in Destiny are so complex that they require time, experimentation, and especially help and opinion from friends. Even more: depending on the activity you have to configure everything differently. I've been playing Destiny for almost 3 years now and only recently did I get two characters with maximum intellect, discipline and 2 active power slots. This is because of another characteristic: quality of the armor. It was not enough, I also wanted these qualities without having to remove that exotic piece I like. This complexity brings a sense of accomplishment when we succeed. Now, the skills have changed COMPLETELY. Because? I know there will be a fake justification in the story, but the question continues: why? This is the observation of the total disrespect of the players who have dedicated themselves for years. Ball game, Destiny, ceased to exist. Now comes another game also made by Bungie and that, for lack of creativity, call it Destiny 2. Who thought bad the complexity of Destiny could play the crap HALO, for example ... Game to zero in on a weekend . Who reset Destiny? The Grimoire does not lie: it's possible to zero the achievements in Destiny, but unfortunately, this notion gets lost with that crap that comes around. There's a lot of talk about FPS, gameplay ... Would you trade Destiny for HALO if it were 1,000,000 FPS? The solar super-ability of the arcane is simply cretin, after all, what is the least used exotic sword in Destiny? Precisely the arc one because being able to hit the target is difficult and annoying. Now, who does not like this exotic sword... cry..., because the solar super-ability of the warlock in Destiny 2 is such crap. Abandoned, I'll ask for my money back from ordering this game that mimics Destiny. I've already been told that it was necessary to "renew" the game. My thesis is that tinkering with skills is going too far. It was years of balancing the subclasses to be fair in PvP and efficient in PvE. It was not easy. Can you imagine the "new" Warlock killing Oryx? Ah ... for the new raid he will be great ... May be, but it will not be the Warlock. Calling him like that is disrespect. There is a hero whose story was created in 1938, that is, 79 years old: Superman. Do you imagine DC wanting to "refresh" the character and take away the ability to fly from it? Have you watched a superman movie in which he can not fly and get the flu, cough and allergy, but on the other hand, he is super-skilled at invading emails and unlocking locks with the power of persuasion? In the face of all the comments I have read here I know that I am an isolated voice. As far as I know, no one has found the mere existence of "new" skills to be bad. What a pity. My hope for continuity of the game died. For anyone who wants, there will be a new game, totally different from Destiny, but plagiarized from this. Can the author himself plagiarize his work? To whoever played BETA I ask: would you have bought in advance if Bungie's new game was called "Guardians of Light", for example? Many, even me, would have bought and perhaps there would be the sadness for the end of Destiny, but we would be ready for a new adventure.

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              • https://gamerant.com/destiny-2-homecoming-story-mission-change/

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                • [quote]...if you are a competitive player, we've re-thought the Crucible from first principles, we're moving ALL activities in PVP to 4v4,...[/quote] Wow, they are giving me less than I had with D1 and I'm supposed to doing fist pumps over it. LOL.

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                • Wah. Dont buy the game.

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                  • Are you sure you "figured out" crucible?

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                  • Spot on my man. D2 is desperate to expand player base and kids drive sales. This alone aligns to there decisions to dumb down the game and on top of that made it easier to build the game, balance and expand upon. End of the day if your ride or die Destiny and desperate for "new" content then you buying the game regardless. Me personally, money aside I don't want to waste my time anymore if this is direction and quality of content of D2 moving forward. I'll be watching and keeping my out but I will not be buying the game until weeks after the fact and we get a good idea of final product.

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