Have at. Enjoy yourself.

Have to agree with you. I’m 57 and this is what I do for fun. So if occasionally in the course of a discussion the topic of whether or not something is fun pops up, and I say I don’t think it is, someone will always come in with “mad ‘cause your bad”. As if it matters if I’m good or bad! The logical disconnect is this - there are lots of things I’m very good at, but hate doing. Housework. My job. Mowing grass. Being good at something =/= having fun, and vice versa. In the end, stuff is fun or it isn’t. If it’s fun enough to hook you, you get past being bad and get better. If you don’t enjoy it, you never care enough to play to get better at something you don’t enjoy.

I agree with your point in isolation, but the topic of this post is about the difficulty level of the game. Obviously if someone doesn't enjoy being challenged, they are most likely not a very good player. That's just common sense.

Actually, it isn’t common sense. It’s conflation.

How?

You are making exactly the erroneous assumption I was talking about in the post on which you first commented.

Lol... Because there is no reason why someone would dislike being challenged if they could conquer that challenge. People who struggle are the ones who are frustrated when games are difficult. Actually, most players in general enjoy the challenge and the satisfaction of conquering said challenge. So I guess I should be more specific and say that a certain group of people, your group of people, don't enjoy it. You want things handed to you. And that's fine. I don't understand it... At all... But it's fine. However, that's not what gamers in general want, or spend their money on. Bungie already tried making the game extremely easy when Destiny 2 launched, and it failed. Miserably failed. If you don't like the way the game is heading (in terms of difficulty, at least), this game isn't for you.

Heh... and you keep making my case for me. I don’t want to be mean to you, I don’t. You can’t grasp the separation between skill and what is pleasing. I don’t want to beat you up on it anymore than you’ve already hurt yourself. You’ve also incorrectly assumed I don’t want the game to be harder or challenging because I’m challenging your failed logic. To put it bluntly, you’re being superficial and seem unaware of it. You know nothing about me or what appeals to me or does not. Let me help you... I’m in this discussion because I enjoy the interaction. I disagree with the premise people are only motivated by challenges they can complete. There are any number of reasons a person might play. Interesting your imagination can only conjure one. Anyway, it amuses me how you view this whole deal.

[quote]I don’t want to be mean to you, I don’t. You can’t grasp the separation between skill and what is pleasing. I don’t want to beat you up on it anymore than you’ve already hurt yourself.[/quote] Lol ok [quote]You’ve also incorrectly assumed I don’t want the game to be harder or challenging because I’m challenging your failed logic. To put it bluntly, you’re being superficial and seem unaware of it.[/quote] You entered a discussion about how difficult Destiny should be, and immediately aligned yourself with someone who was battling those saying the game is too easy. If you don't hold the same sentiment, here's the best courses of action: DO: A. Communicate that you don't feel the same way, and don't want your comment to be taken out of context. B. Don't comment DON'T: Continue arguing with someone about the difficulty of the game... Simple, I know!! [quote]You know nothing about me or what appeals to me or does not. Let me help you... I’m in this discussion because I enjoy the interaction. I disagree with the premise people are only motivated by challenges they can complete. There are any number of reasons a person might play. Interesting your imagination can only conjure one.[/quote] I already said in my most recent post that I understand not everyone finds enjoyment in video games being challenging. My issue with people complaining about Destiny being too hard is that they want the game altered to fit their vision despite being a minority. This is proven by how miserably low the player count was for the entirety of Year 1, when Bungie had made efforts to make the game easier. Got it? Cool!

You made yourself the poster boy for the point I was making, not me. You wound up trying to belittle me as someone who did not want challenge in the game and suggested I play something else. Right? Right. I want the game to be big enough for everyone, and by that I mean all kinds of interests. I’ve moved through all the phases in my time with the franchise (platinum D1 player, more casual now). I even defend game modes I don’t like because I know others do. See it now? Your absolutist stand is at odds with my belief about what the game should be and who it should serve. It is not without irony I point out how it is you who are trying to bend the game to your own selfish ends even as you accuse me of doing the same. At every remark you are trying to shut down the discussion. Who knows why? Maybe you’re just combative. Maybe these are the limits of your ability to discuss. I don’t know, but for my part I do have one serious flaw; I just have to see how far someone will go. More than that, every time you respond in this tone you are demonstrating the mindset I was discussing. Your original point, boiled to its essence was “only bad players complain about difficulty.” Right? Right.

[quote]You wound up trying to belittle me as someone who did not want challenge in the game and suggested I play something else. Right? Right.[/quote] I didn't belittle you. I said it's fine if people want an easy game. But I also said that Destiny should not be one of those games. Bungie has said they are moving the franchise in a more hardcore direction, which is why I said if you aren't happy with that this isn't the game for you. [quote]I want the game to be big enough for everyone, and by that I mean all kinds of interests. I’ve moved through all the phases in my time with the franchise (platinum D1 player, more casual now). I even defend game modes I don’t like because I know others do.[/quote] So do I... But casualifying the game will have the exact opposite effect and kill the franchise, like it almost did in Year 1. This is the third time I've brought up Bungie's failure when they tried to make a game for casual players, and you haven't addressed that point a single time. I am not saying the game should only be accessible to hardcore players, I care about the health of the franchise and obviously that correlates with having as many players as possible. But endgame content such as raids, which are meant to be the pinnacle activities for hardcore players, should be difficult. Period. [quote]See it now? Your absolutist stand is at odds with my belief about what the game should be and who it should serve. It is not without irony I point out how it is you who are trying to bend the game to your own selfish ends even as you accuse me of doing the same.[/quote] This is not just my opinion. Again, I am going to bring up Year 1. 85% of the player base left by Curse of Osiris. Because the game was too easy. Forsaken brought back the grind and players came back in droves. Do I personally want the game to be more hardcore for me? Yup. But I also don't expect the game to be changed to fit only my desires, despite you accusing me of such. But my perspective also lines up with that of the majority of people who play endgame content. Never once have I met someone (besides on these forums) that said "Man, I wish raids was easier!" This just isn't something most Destiny veterans think. [quote]At every remark you are trying to shut down the discussion. Who knows why? Maybe you’re just combative. Maybe these are the limits of your ability to discuss. I don’t know, but for my part I do have one serious flaw; I just have to see how far someone will go. More than that, every time you respond in this tone you are demonstrating the mindset I was discussing.[/quote] Where on Earth did I try to shut down the discussion? [quote]Your original point, boiled to its essence was “only bad players complain about difficulty.” Right? Right.[/quote] Yup. And I stand by that. Obviously there are exceptions, but if you think 90% of good players would complain about something being too hard for them... Well then you're just saying that for the sake of the argument because you know that isn't true. And that's not a toxic or condescending, that's just logic. There are plenty of easy things for those players to do like strikes, story missions, etc... Leave the endgame pinnacle content alone

You are only half right about year one. Certainly going for the casual masses hurt the game - a lot. But more than that, trying to make a game based around a perfectly leveled PvP experience helped drive that decision. D2 vanilla was built from the ground up on a two-primary system designed to level the skill gap in PvP. All other decisions were derived from from that choice. As has been said before by others, Bungie was trying to recreate Halo. I contend what one finds challenging and what one finds enjoyable are not one and the same, though they can exist together. This is why the ad hominem attack on players who are against certain kinds of challenges (aka “You’re just not good at the game”) fail to fairly characterize the argument. I don’t like PvP at all - and I never will. You can say I’m good or bad, doesn’t matter either way, because I can’t stand it win or lose. That’s specific to Destiny, because I have a 10-year stint as an online combat simulator, and that is ALWAYS PvP. I was good enough to be sponsored as a trainer and Event Coordinator for the game as well. I’m not against PvP as a concept - I don’t like Destiny’s offering. That being said, I fully recognize it has to exist for the overall game to be healthy. As long as a healthy sandbox balance can be struck between the two modes, I can support it. But... I hate the quests that run through it. I would never ask that not happen, because to be fair PvP players have to run through PvE to complete many quests. Still, I can understand why some would like to see another way to get these things done. Now here is where it comes full circle... if someone says they don’t want to play PvP to complete a quest, rather than say, “Hey! PvP players have to run PvE quests too!” which is a completely fair statement, what is usually said is “you just don’t like PvP because you’re no good”. Sigh. Aside from not being germane to the issue, it’s a confrontational way to make a meaningless point, most often to puff up the person making the statement. What could have been a discussion of possible paths to getting quests done becomes yet another pointless argument about stats. A similar thing happened in this thread - how long did it take for the first “The game is easy, maybe you suck?” comment? How do you have a meaningful dialogue with that level of discourse? You saw my original response to the other fellow as a non sequitur, judging by your initial response, but our interaction has proven how apropos it really is.