Foreknowledge =/= Causation I'm of the opinion that the dichotomy between freewill and determinism is a false one. Many philosophers have posited solutions that reconcile together the two. Research "compatibilism." I think that while our universe may be determined, humans could just as well be causes as much as they are effects. It would seem arrogant to suppose that man has complete freedom when there are various factors outside of our control, but I also think it is logically fallacious to assume that man has no free-will whatsoever. Ayn Rand summed it up well when she accused determinists of the Stolen Concepts Fallacy. In other words, how can you deny human choice when it is precisely human choice that allows us to think, critically examine evidence, and arrive at our conclusions? Axiomatically at least we would have to concede to some level of freedom, otherwise all forms of knowledge including the validity of logical thought itself goes out the window. Regarding the religious aspect, Everything you've said is actually 100% logically consistent ...From a Western Christian standpoint. Essentially you've arrived at hardline Calvinism which teaches precisely what you stated. They call it predestination IIRC. This is in fact one of my criticisms of Western Christendom. Calvinism and the very ugly picture it paints is inevitable, which inevitably gives rise to atheism. The Orthodox Church however does not share the same theological foundations as Western Christendom and therefore you cannot arrive at the same conclusions. In short, grace is not understood as imputed righteousness nor some status that God bestows upon, nor is salvation viewed as a mere acquittal verdict. Rather, grace is understood as literally being the divine energies of God, and therefore salvation as the lifelong process of being conformed to God's image and likeness as partakers of the divine nature via those energies. Therefore, when the Bible speaks of God "saving" us of no virtue of our own and granting us his "grace," we would not interpret in the same Western Christian way. In other words, it doesn't mean that God has granted us an acquittal verdict through no merit of our own. But rather it means that God has [i]made[/i] our salvation possible through no merit of our own. You are right in that the former is inherently deterministic since logically there is no room for human choice or effort. This is where the Faith vs. Works issue arises in Western Christendom. But there is still room for choice and human effort in the latter view. Because we would say that while God has made our salvation [i]possible[/i] through granting us his grace (divine energies) and all that preachy stuff, we still have to continually make the conscious effort to both receive, accept, and cooperate with it. This is called Synergy. The end product is Theosis--Orthodox Salvation. Western Christendom's problem was introducing legalism into their theology. An overemphasis on the judicial. This is what caused them to abandon the Orthodox view of grace in lieu of imputed righteousness, which in turn is the error that underlies their entire soteriological system. You recognized and pointed out one of the errors of such a system--that it leads to determinism and the like, which contradicts the freewill thing. However, you were a bit mistaken in assuming that Western Christendom speaks for Christendom as a whole.

But the spaghetti monster in the sky already told me I'm going to the Marvel universe!

How about we don't post religion threads.

I think if it were up to God everyone would be Christian or whatever. Doesn't the fact that there are so many atheist prove that there is free will?

Hahahahahahahaha You take the bible's interpretations too literally my friend ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) The bible was written by man not by god, everything that is said is not completely known

I took a critical thinking class in college a couple of years ago. It was very eye opening and made me really re-evaluate my faith. (I believe it is healthy for all people of faith to do this, not just Christians) The professor spent a large portion of the class essentially disproving the possibility of the Christian God existing within our realm of logical possibilities. After many months of contemplating I came to my own personal conclusion that the realm of logical possibilities was constructed by man, and we are trying to disprove supernatural things and ideas based on what we have observed thus far and what we can wrap our minds around. And that maybe, we just aren't designed to understand everything. I really encourage everyone to take a critical thinking class. Most useful class I've ever taken.

Your understanding of Christian doctrine is a bit flawed. Your statement about good works meaning nothing to God suggests that you think that Christians believe that good works could get you into heaven. However, the Christian faith actually revolves around the idea that people are unable to get to heaven by their own merits due to sin, which is what necessitated Christ's sacrifice to pay for those sins and "wipe them from the record," so to speak. It's not about doing good works but rather accepting forgiveness for your bad ones. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—[b]and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works[/b], so that no one can boast." Essentially, your evaluation of the Bible was correct on that point, but that is also the Christian viewpoint anyway so there is no actual argument there. As for your logical argument, that's a less concrete area. You say that God being just and all-knowing would be mutually exclusive due to him eliminating free will and picking and choosing who goes where in the afterlife. I'd argue that you are speaking of a paradox that does not exist, that God knowing what choices people would make does not necessarily mean that he created humans with no free will or actively controls those choices. One also has to remember that if God exists, He would have to exist without being restricted by spacetime and thus would be able to see every event that occurred/occurs/will occur. People make choices in real time relative to themselves, but relative to God those choices are yet to be made, are being made, and have already been made, all simultaneously; and He does not interfere with them. However, that's simply my thoughts and interpretations. [b]TL;DR[/b] You are correct that according to the Bible, humans can't get into heaven through good works because they are sinful. Christ sacrifices himself to pay for humanity's sins, and this grace is extended to all humans (as your passage says). They can make the choice to accept it, and God is aware of what choice they make due to being unrestricted by spacetime, but does not interfere with that choice - He is knowing, but not controlling. And of course, feel free to believe what you want to. This is simply a defense of my own beliefs.

Saying you don't is a convenient excuse to get away with anything.

I'm not religious by any means but I've noticed something about people who denigrate Christians: they seem to think that the Bible is meant to be taken literally. Here's a hint, it isn't and most Christians don't

Get your spooky science out of here

Oh my god, I remember your broken logic. Just because someone knows what you're going to do doesn't mean you don't have free will. If I were able to travel through time and see everything you ever have and ever will do, does that mean you no longer have free will? You've already made every decision you'll ever make. The past and present both exist at the same time. Someone out side of it would be able to see it all.

Now put it into science terms. Try and use the concepts of time and our perception of reality. [spoiler]impress me[/spoiler]

Dont you think, if God is real, that its pretty foolish to think that a mortal, finite mind can try to understand the immortal, infinite mind?