Here's the flaw in your well thought out logic. Basically you would turn all of crucible into trials. Look at the very small % of players who play trials. That's all you would have left if you went back to cbmm. Trust me I know the struggle. If I team up with a crub friend I go in and wreck and they have a bad time. Or I go in with my top tier friends and I hate it. So going solo into sbmm is the only place I feel like I have a challenge even though it's pretty damn sweaty.

Great stuff as always, CoolGuy. We definitely ought to be able to choose between skill and casual. The fact that some people think CBMM on its own is a bad idea, is just absurd to me. Save the SBMM for Trials and places where it actually counts. Battlefield doesn't enforce SBMM, Overwatch gives you a choice, the list goes on. It should be about optimal playing experience, and SBMM improving the experience is a funny concept when you're being matched with people that are invincible gods that have unlocked the secret "lag subclass", where every ability allows them to blink across the map and snipe you with their matador. And like you say, we can't even measure our own skill unless we go online to view our "combat rating", which is hardly accurate when it's not shared across characters and puts you in the strangest of brackets. The truth is that it doesn't work, and that's what's hilarious about this situation. While I appreciate Bungie's effort to make the Crucible "fair", it's all in vain when the ranking system doesn't even work.

Alright, here we go the most infamous discussion currently to be part of these threads: SBMM. Yay or Nay? In this discussion, I will be addressing both the positives and negatives on this debate, and will try to see from both viewpoints. Just a footnote though, I am in the top 1% and have a 2.05KD with 3000+ hours into Crucible alone and been playing since Dark Below, so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to SBMM and the Crucible in general. [b]Let's start with the Pros of SBMM:[/b] - [b]Allows[/b] unskilled players to have balanced matches with other unskilled players, allowing them to slowly be introduced into the Crucible. - [b]Makes[/b] games more equal for both sides, seeing that there would be no major skill gaps. - [b]Makes[/b] it less likely for unskilled players to be pubstomped. [b]Unfortunately, those are really the only Pros of SBMM. Now, let's look at the Cons:[/b] - [b]Since[/b] skill is prioritized over connection consistently, and connection is hardly considered at all, (Don't argue with that one: 95% of the Destiny Community agrees with that), games are lagging all the time. Red Bars are always in the lobbies, and it makes matches unplayable. People are matched up with other people across the world sometimes, which is just unacceptable in any game, even with dedicated servers. - [b]Matchmaking[/b] times take minutes on end to find one match, no matter the playlist. - [b]Matches[/b] for people above 1.5KD's are always a constant sweaty match, which makes the Crucible more a chore and less a casual experience. I can't use any "fun" loadouts anymore (Red Death with Saladin's Vigil and Defender anyone?) because each match is a competetive mess just to get above at least 10 kills. I don't mind playing a sweat every now and then, but every single match? That's just frustrating, infuriating, and most of all, dissapointing. - [b]It limits[/b] the diversity of weapons, armor, and subclasses in the Crucible: Shotguns are rampant and snipers are nearly unusable. Auto Rifles are garbage, while High ROF pulses and Palindrome handcannons are dominating the meta. Anyone who doesn't use these types of gear is already at a [i]major[/i] dis-advantage, and has to use those weapons just to play, much less win and enjoy the actual game. - [b]It discourages[/b] playing with people in fireteams who have great stats, especially if your fireteam members are new to the game, because it takes the player with the highest stats and pairs the fireteam with people of that skill, which makes it impossible for the other members to play. Some people (typically ones below 1.0KD's) are concerned that if SBMM is removed, then low skilled players will be destroyed over and over again, but that isn't true. Keep this in mind: 1/100 Destiny players is in the top 1%, so the chances that you will run into one of them is very, very slim. Most games will be only a skill gap of about 0.1-0.2, which isn't that much of a difference. Also, there is concern that games will be more difficult, but that is a positive thing. Playing people of the same skill level when said skill level is so low doesn't help either player get better: mistakes are forgiven and getting better is very, very slow. I started off as most people do: a noob. I had good matches where I did well, and I also had matches where I got my a** handed to me on a plate, but I [i]learned[/i] from these experiences. I got better quickly, and now I am in the top 1%: not through playing people of my skill every time, but losing to people who are better than me. [b]There are many more cons to list, but those are the major ones. Now, what is the solution to this?[/b] Simple: bring back Year 1 matchmaking. Year 1 matchmaking was a blend of CBMM [i]and[/i] SBMM. CBMM was favored more heavily, creating much better connections, then a dash of SBMM was also there to make sure that top tier players weren't thrown in with the absolute bottom tier players. This created very smooth games with decent equalization on both teams, making the experience enjoyable for all. On top of this, here's another way to keep bottom tier players from getting destroyed (even though it is highly unlikely). Add SBMM for new players that lasts until they have 5 hours into the Crucible (an average game is 10 minutes, so you can get 30 games done in 5 hours), and once that time is reached they will be put into the Year 1 matchmaking process. This allows new players to be introduced by playing people of their skill, and once they are comfortable enough they will be introduced into normal Crucible. [b] So, to recap what needs to be done:[/b] - Year 1 Matchmaking needs to be brought back to normal Crucible, even Iron Banner and Trials of Osiris, although increase the SBMM just a hair in that algorithem for the latter two. - Add SBMM protection for players under 5 hours of Crucible time, allowing them to get adjusted slowly. Again, these are just my thoughts, but I think this could potentially work very well. And Bungie, remember that if you try this out and it doesn't work, you can always change it back: nothing is set in stone. Before I go I want to leave with this: [i]No one asked for SBMM in Year 1, and ever since you implemented it without telling us at first, everyone's been having a worse Crucible experience.[/i] Diversity is at an all time low, fun loadouts are nearly non-existent, lag is everywhere, matchmaking takes forever, and having fun in generally is hard to come by. People would rather play people of different skills that have great connection rather than people of their skill but terrible connection. Things need to change, and Year 1 matchmaking was the best. Please, consider this proposal and at least try it: I'm sure it will work. Your Crucible slave, -xBriarlightx

Remove SBMM

FULL groups of 6 should not face SOLO queue Two separate groups of three should not face a full group of SOLO queue players Players should not be placed into games that have already begun IMO, if these 3 things change then the entire crucible experience will be a whole lot better.

I agree with EVERYTHING you said: glad to hear people actually discuss this instead of just straight up saying "get rid of sbmm"

Well , that was a very good argument , although you sadly missed the opportunity to give your argument more credibility by at least agreeing on SOMETHING . The point that states , that games are gonna be laggy no matter what if the fireteam consists of guardians from different countries IS a valid point and you should have acknowleged that. The solution to that would be a PING requirement in lobbies. Lets say none of your fireteam members have more than 100 ping then you should not match against any guardians or even fireteams consisting of guardians with a higher ping than 100. Make ranges : Say 0-50 ping , 50-100 ping , 100-150 ping , 150-200 ping , 200 plus ping. Other than that your argument was really good. Well done. Also the real problem here is the way match making is done . They SAY they are prioritising connection over skill , but that in essence is not true and they even admitted to that by stating the following: They will try to match you with guardians that have a good connection that are in your skill brackett first! Then if they cannot find a good enough connection they will open up the skill brackett. That in essence means that they are FIRST looking in your skill brackett . That is skill PRIORITY. The way they SHOULD do it is look for THE BEST CONNECTION and then if they can find EQUALLY good connections in a similar skill brackett. And with equal i actually mean EQUAL. Nobody knows what connections are good enough for bungie. Just look for the best and replace if you find an equally good 1 closer to the desired skill brackett.

Destiny's design team has said why skilled based match making is in the game. I can point to a different game, one that has both a ranked and casual play list, and show you that that game too has skilled based match making and it has the skilled based match making for the exact same reason as Destiny. So, lets go through the elements of Destiny. You have your primary weapon. When they're used, skill does play a big difference in their effectiveness. If you can land your head shots while strafing, you'll do much better than a player who can't. You have your secondary weapons. These are powerful. They are limited (somewhat) by ammo, and skilled players can control secondary ammo. You have your heavy weapons, which are even more powerful, limited spawn, and skilled team can control these even easier than secondary ammo caches. You have your melee and grenade. These vary in skill level, and recharge and a fixed rate (which can be influenced by build). You have your super. This recharges at a fixed rate, plus kills, captures, etc. boost the recharge. So, a better player can acquire their super faster, which can help their team get supers, etc. Essentially, every element in Destiny builds on top of the other magnifying skill gap. There is nothing in the game that helps rubber band low skilled players with high skilled players. Overwatch has supers and similar snowball effect, and has skill based match making in both its casual and ranked playlists. CoD, on the other hand, has rubber banding mechanics to help boost low skill to high skill players. That allows them to forgo sbmm and favor connections. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Overwatch "gets away" with their SBMM because the game was built on and for the newer tech (unlike destiny which was built to allow PS3 and Xbox360 players to play with), and they have dedicated servers. Both of these are the biggest drivers of Destiny's technology problem. Ideally, Bungie implements dedicated servers and funds it through the Eververse purchase - but if wishes was fishes, we'd all swim. Now, they could tweak the crucible add a rubber banding mechanic and drop SBMM for CBMM. They could make high skilled players worth more to kill than low skilled players - so high skilled players don't gain as much super energy pub stomping. The secondary ammo crates can be completely removed from the game and the only way to get more secondary is through respawning. This would put high skilled players playing with their primaries while the lower skilled players would have secondary weapons to help balance out the game. I'm sure others can come up with other rubber banding mechanics as well. Removing SBMM without adding some form of rubber banding is a bad idea though. That is what Trials is, and I'm sure that the data shows that it is the least popular crucible choice. Making all of the crucible Tirals, without the Trial's rewards as a carrot - I think will bring about a drop in the player base and creating the same connection problems that currently exist for skilled players.

Great points Cool Guy. Agree there should be different playlists, and that currently playing in a fireteam with varying skills leaves everyone frustrated. Halo 3 model would be great. But there is a common argument that I see from many players that I just don't quite understand in regards to SBMM. I often see "I just want to relax/have fun, I don't want to sweat every game!" And I know what you mean, I want to run around with Hard Light and not feel totally outclassed. But, as part of the same argument to support CBMM, high skilled players always discuss how "I had to learn the hard way" and "I got beatdowns regularly, but I wanted to improve and win". So... what am I missing here? You don't want to sweat every game, but it's ok for other players to sweat every game so they get better. In other words, I think SBMM is getting blamed for 2 entirely different topics: 1) Weapon balance. Bungie has always stated their goal is to make every weapon competitive within their range. Well, we all know it's not true and always a work in progress. If "relaxing" means running any loadout you want, then let's make the weapons better, not the competition worse. 2) Attitude and stats. Guess what- I still use Hard Light (and other non-meta guns) regularly. I lose plenty of gunfights, my K/D goes down. Here's where attitude is key: I don't get upset, and I don't worry about my stats. It's a good chance to learn to compensate, through better positioning, awareness, movement, etc. And more importantly? Finally winning that battle against the jug skating shotgun titan by giving him a light show makes for a very rewarding and memorable moment. Nobody is forcing you to play the meta, except your competitive nature. So be careful with your arguments, and don't blame SBMM for a weapon balance problem or the fact that we are normal, competitive human beings that like winning more than losing and learning.