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Edited by Meph:
5/27/2017 11:20:59 PM
53
Perhaps Sniper Rifles, Shotguns and Fusion Rifles are better off in the Power (heavy) slot...
Since the general consensus around here has been one of outrage in regards to the weapon slot changes that have been made in Destiny 2 I really took to thinking about:
"Is moving sniper rifles, shotguns and fusion rifles such a bad thing?"
In other threads we have determined that 6 Kinetic Primary options, 6 Energy Primary options and 7 Power Weapon option's will result in 252 different weapon archetype combinations compared to the 48 different combinations we presently have in Destiny 1. There is a counter argument that in reality we would have only 42 actual combinations in Destiny 2 because Kinetic and Energy weapons are essentially the same types of weapons and should not be counted twice. Whether or not you agree with this it all results in the same thing, you can no longer have a sniper rifle and a rocket launcher or a shotgun with a chaingun or a fusion rifle with a sword or another convenient pairing that was helpful in PvE or PvP. I believe that it was because players would now be forced to decide between equipping a sniper rifle and a launcher and not having the option of having both that has resulted in this upset about the coming change.
Psychologically this makes sense because a good player wants to be able to have a tool to solve every problem in front of them. We strive to be self-sufficient because it would make certain encounters easier when we had an answer to every challenge. This feeling of frustration is natural because in Destiny 2 we will not have the freedom to be as well rounded. [u]I feel that this may not actually be a bad thing, think about it...[/u] This change will result in more team diversity in regards to load outs. [b]This change encourages cooperation and team work because now fireteam members will need to specialize their power slot in order to meet a specific need for the fireteam.[/b] We might need a member that has a sniper rifle, another member might need a launcher, perhaps we will need someone with a sword or a shotgun to act as our front line or deal with lots of adds.
This change could be a blessing in terms of team gameplay design.
How often did we used to raid and do crucible with an entire fireteam loading out the same exact weapons? Sometimes restricting the use of a certain weapon promotes specialization.
What does everyone else think?
[u][b]
TLDR for my post if it is too much to read:
Moving some special weapons to the heavy slot sucks but may make grouping fun because everyone on the fireteam can fulfill a unique role.[/b][/u]
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Everyone running around sliding with shotguns is what made me stop playing D1 PVP, it was tedious, I'm fully expecting the same in D2 now.
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Bungie's stupidity continues to hinder my PvE experience. They need to stop balancing the entire game just for the Crucible, it ruins the PvE aspect for the rest of us. That's what they did to the Thorn - I almost never used it in the (very rare) occasions when I went into the Crucible. But, because the minority cries the loudest, my favorite Exotic got destroyed. Bad JuJu was there for me, though. Hope they bring it back.
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Frankly, my biggest problem with this change is that making us choose between special weapons and heavy weapons makes special weapons useless. For instance, I don't see much point in using a sniper rifles instead of a launcher. That was the reason heavy ammo is rarer than special. Because it did more damage and was more useful. I realize sniper rifles have their place but I still just don't understand the change.
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3 RepliesPvP is fine but PvE is my biggest concern. For overall PvE utility Fusion and Shotguns need a substantial buff to be viable.
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It will be very interesting what happens cause in raids we use snipers 90% of the time so what happens when we can only use sniper 10 to 30% of the time? Might be a good change might not be at least we won't have people camping the whole game with sniper in pvp.
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15 RepliesEdited by NathanW18: 5/26/2017 8:17:33 AMIt makes perfect sense in PvP. Those one shot kill weapons are annoying and are better off in the power slot. Bungie wanted the game to be slower and more focus put on primary weapon gunfights. I like that. I'm unsure about PvE, though. The vast majority of us haven't played the game yet, but based on very little, I feel like we're going to be forced into using either a sword, rocket launcher, or sniper in the power slot. Fusion rifles already don't get used. This change gives you even less reason to use one. I also don't think people will pick a shotgun over a sword. Unless they massively buff fusion rifles and shotguns to give them some kind of purpose. Overall, though, I'm fine with the change, because it will make PvP better. They had to nerf special weapons too many times, because they're too strong in PvP. Hopefully this will stop these weapons from getting nerfed. Putting them in the power slot is going to help balance the game. They can make those weapons a lot more powerful, because you can't use them all game in PvP. That will hopefully make them viable picks in PvE, too. People are upset, because they're used to what we have now. I think once the game comes out, people will get used to it and the complaints will stop. I still think fusion rifles are going to be in a bad place, and won't be used, but I'll take that if we get a more balanced Crucible.
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What it will come down to is camp with scouts have a hc in case someone rushes you and equip a rocket launcher that there will be 90% of the load outs.
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I'm gonna specify that the changes look good for the sake of adaptability in combat. Here are my concerns: 1. In the reveal build for pve it looked like power ammo was really really scarce. That's fine for strikes and story or whatever but if we're talking raids that brings back too many awful moments of having to do several "ammo runs then wipe" just to do a real run, die, and have to go back to ammo runs/waiting around for 5 minutes for synth, then another 5 for the synth timer in case we needed more heavy for the actual run. 2. On that note I'm praying that boss health pools have been adjusted to accommodate for the change. The modular mind seemed to be pretty spongy which is worrisome. 3. I also hope that fusions, shotguns, and snipers have been adjusted to be more powerful than their current D1 counterparts if ammo is going to be this scarce. Especially fusions and shotguns which see little to no play in pve because of how pve encounters are built to favor sniping over anything else. From the gameplay I've seen this doesn't really seem to be the case, although thankfully in PvP it looks like the shotgun was actually powerful. 4. My third concern is especially true in pvp where we don't know what the ammo drop rate will be like in other game modes. Will the team be able to get it or will the 1 brick 1 person persist across all game modes? Will anyone actually use a fusion rifle over grenade launchers and rocket launchers? Again I can't help but imagine this system as if it were still D1. Under the new system Bungie will have to achieve a much better balance between ammo drop rate, ammo received per brick, weapon power, and boss health than they have in D1.
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2 RepliesSo I'm trying not to focus so much on what we are losing but instead on what we're getting. Yes we're losing one kind of versatility, but we're gaining another type of versatility. The ability to carry two "primaries" grants me the kind of flexibility I miss from other games where I can carry a good longer range weapon like a scout rifle and a good shorter range weapon like an smg or auto rifle or hand cannon. I usually try to replicate this now using a scout rifle and a shotgun, but ammo concerns can be a real pain. We're also gaining the versatility to reliably deal with shields in a way we haven't really had in Destiny 1 since year 1 elemental primary weapons, again because of special ammo concerns. We all know the annoyance of dealing with tons of shielded shanks and psions and not wanting to waste shotgun ammo or not having heavy ammo to deal with it. Now we have an actual consistent counterplay to shields and I really like that. That's not to say that losing the versatility we have now is nothing. It's a real loss, especially if encounters are tuned like they used to be in year 1 nightfalls. I'm just saying, we aren't losing those capabilities and getting nothing in return. Finally, I'll say that we all tend to think purely in Y1 terms. But we don't really know yet what all changes they're making to the weapons or encounters. We know already we're seeing magazine buffs. We won't know about other changes probably till the beta. But it seems reasonable to think we'll see some weapons return to, or even exceed, lethality they haven't had since year 1. Here's what this brings to my mind: Remember when we all found out ghorn wasn't coming back for year 2? Some people said it was good because too many people used it as a crutch, others were upset because it was really fun to use and a really powerful tool in the tool box (I was in that second group btw). I was ready for just some sucky fights without it. But I didn't yet understand what a game changer swords would be. Particularly Razelighter and Dark Drinker. Once I got those I basically forgot about ghorn till year 3. That's not to say I'm not gonna care about not having a sniper AND a sword in D2. It's just a personal reminder that a change that looks like total disaster before release doesn't always look like one after release.
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15 RepliesIt will definately make encounters more challenging, personally i think thats a good thing.
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2 RepliesSome people are just afraid of changes
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6 RepliesThis will make PvE more difficult
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Edited by Pete: 5/28/2017 4:42:30 AMMy opinion for this change in pvp, whatever, unless you use a sidearm it's basically like heavy anyway because the ammo goes away after you die. For pve however it's a different story. Primary weapons suck against bosses and now I have 2 of them for those bosses. I honestly feel like bungie is trying to hard to cater to the top 1% of pvp players because honestly I don't think special weapons that lose ammo are op at all
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16 RepliesHow do less options equal more diversity? If anyone tells you they would choose a shotgun/fusion iver a RL or sword is a liar. Becaus given the choice between 1-2 kills vs a group or a major who will give that up?
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3 RepliesI love it! Such a good move. Pretty much any weapon that can kill in one shot is a power weapon. Makes total sense.
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I haven't tried it, but I don't need to to know that having a sniper rifle and a rocket launcher equipped at the same time is far more efficient than having to pick between the two. This change will make PvE even more of a slog than it already is (especially with the return of bullet-sponge bosses) by limiting players' options and forcing them to rely more heavily on their primary weapons.
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4 RepliesIts not good for pve. Unless enemy mechanics and raid encounters are very different from what Destiny was, it's hurting it over all. Just so you can say, "hey I can use an hc and scout as primaries." At the cost of efficiency and over all dps. If bosses are bullet sponges like they were in Destiny, raids and any end game pve content is gonna be a damn mess. I don't like that trade off. I'd rather have more efficiency and dps rather than just putting two primaries together. Maybe there will be some super strong primaries that will be released and maybe they'll rely on other mechanics for enemies. The only way I could see pve content as not being a potential disaster is maybe more usage of relics to do the main source of dps to bosses. It's not a good move for pve period. The only reason why it's happening is because of PvP. We've asked for years to stop making PvP dictate pve. With seeing the new weapon loadouts in the sequel, that's going ass backwards.
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13 RepliesEven if it creates more incentive to work and coordinate as a team, you are doing so at the disadvantage of solo players who are likely going to be queuing up strikes with people they aren't even communicating with. The system is flawed in that regard. Overall, IMO, this is a PVP oriented change which negatively impacts PVE. If they don't want to keep repeating the mistakes of the past, they're sending the wrong message with this change. Also consider this. People have spoken about boss/encounters in terms of a "D1" encounter vs a "D2" encounter. But the truth of the matter is that by limiting our loadout, they have effectively take D1 style encounters off of the table and they are limited in only designing encounters to tailor it towards D2 encounters. This game is also heavily built on repetition. So how are encounters built ONLY ONE WAY not going to get repetitive and tedious REALLY FAST? It just seems to make sense that the larger variety of encounters you can design, the better, and that would include incorporation of D1 style encounters, in which - people admit in their discussion, tnew loadout system is a net negative. Bottom line: I don't see why they need to box themselves into a corner in how they can design boss encounters and other tough encounters by limiting the capabilities of our guardians, ESPECIALLY if PVE is separated from PVP. It just doesn't make sense. Overall, I don't see any harm to the overall game coming by having ONE loadout system intended for PVP and ONE intended for PVE - with little-to-no crossover between the two.
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9 RepliesI'm hoping that since snipers, fusion, and shotguns are considered heavy OHK weapons that means they'll be more powerful in PvE due to not needing to nerf them into oblivion in PvP. I don't however like the kinetic option. I'd rather see the slots broken down into range rather than element/kinetic. We're -blam!-ing guardians dude.... I why are we using those shitty things instead elemental weapons. Just doesn't make sense.
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2 RepliesEdited by puppyk1sses: 5/27/2017 2:49:42 PMHell no. You get 2 primaries essentially, and have to choose between RL - GL - Fusion - Sword - Sniper - Shotgun - HMG for the last slot. Completely neuters pve weapon diversity. Again, pve getting F'd in the A for the sake of trying to balance pvp. It's like they have learned absolutely nothing. If they could just re-shuffle things and put fusions and shotguns in the "energy weapon" category, it would be more palatable. As it stands now... no, just no. Only caveat is if they [b]massively[/b] buffed sniper, shotgun, and FR damage in pve. HMGs need a damage buff to compete as well.
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9 RepliesLoss of Diversity is not fun. This is merely trying to put a positive spin on a change that is clearly geared towards PvP at the cost of PvE, again, especially since as of so far there's nothing to show that gives an ACTUAL positive offset. Some changes would need to be made to the game as a whole on this change. --Significant increases of effectiveness and uses to the Special weapons moved to the Power Slot. In PvE, why would you use a Shotgun over a sword? Sword in D1 had more ammo, did more damage, and had far more functionality. --Reduced Major/Ultra Health pools. Reduced amount of Majors present in the game. If we were to play D1/Y3 by D2's weapon rules, we'd be back to the problem of D1/Y1 where there was just TOO DAMN MANY bullet sponge enemies in the game, and not enough firepower to take them all out. --Significant damage buffs to abilities in the game for PvE Don't know if you noticed, PvP abilities are A LOT WEAKER in D2 PvP, as well as on a blanket LONGER cooldown. Damage we know they can offset different between PvP and PvE, but know that Cooldowns is going to remain the same across both. So we're not only faced with less firepower in the form of weapons, but so far less frequency in our ability use as well. Hard to tell how effective they were based off people playing the strike. Supers Seemed more powerful in general, but the abilities only seemed about the same as D1. -- New Mechanics. Like say, introducing a mechanic into the game where elemental weapons (and maybe the munition perks) in PvE had more effect of foes than merely just eating through shields faster. Why not make the Hive more vulnerable to Explosive rounds and Solar damage? Have the Vex suck against Armor Piercing Rounds and Arc damage? Actually DO something positive in face of the negative. And not try and merely "Well, let's look on the bright side of this blatant nerf" And maybe they have, but they've failed to make that absolutely apparent, which is a pretty big PR failure.
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12 RepliesYes it is a bad thing, especially for PvE players. All they've done is bury our potential dps output for the sake of PvP. They've reduced loadout variety, despite claiming the opposite. But that's Bungie for you, breaking what isn't broken.
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2 RepliesHow is a Fusion or Shotgun user expected to outplay Rockets, MGs, and Grenade Launchers? That's near impossible. It's not reasonable to think that two short-range weapons should get thrown in with a bunch of long range, deadly weapons and expected to be viable. If this is Bungie's idea of a new balancing system, then it's completely trash since nobody is going to use Fusions or Shotguns over these weapons, in the same way almost nobody uses them now.
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2 RepliesOne thing I am worried about is scout rifles becoming the go to choice in pvp. In Destiny 1 you already had that choice but players were busy running around with shotguns, fusion rifles, snipers, ect. With 4v4 it will be even harder to get the jump on someone as they are less likely to be distracted.
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"If you're using a sniper or shotgun, then you can't use a heavy weapon, because bad players thought it wasn't fair." - Bungie, probably
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3 RepliesI think it's a bad move for PVE - seems like something which has been done for PVP balance but will reduce viable and fun options. The new power weapon slot contains so many different types of 'tool' it's really reducing what you can do.
