I understand the principal of tradeoffs, but they claimed that elemental primaries were problematic because they limited diversity. In bringing them back the way they are, they are creating the illusion of forcing us to make tradeoffs (most people will just change their loadout at the end of the strike to a superior damage heavy weapon and only use the elemental primary to fight through the mobs of lower tier minions) while imposing even further complications regarding weapon diversity. If you look at elemental primaries from the angle Bungie did during Y1 when they chose to remove them, the problem wasn't tradeoffs. The problem was diversity (Luke Smith's words). IF that is your problem, bringing them back in a way that limits your choices FURTHER doesn't create MORE diversity, it creates less diversity - which means they are essentially repeating their same mistake. The tradeoffs argument ONLY works if we are stuck with whatever loadout we bring into a strike and we are unable to change weapons once we touch down. But that simply isn't the case. SMART people will abuse the elemental primaries in situations they are most useful (mopping up bands of lower tier minions present throughout the strike) and then switch to more powerful weapons for the boss fight. [b]There really is no tradeoff[/b], its just a decision that is more of an inconvenience than anything - and it doesn't promote general loadout diversity.

I think I found the spot where we differ in our opinions. You think that using weapons where they are useful is a bad thing? Of course that's the smart thing to do! And I'm pretty sure Bungie wants it that way. Doesn't it make sense for certain weapons to be good for certain things? A primary weapon is INTENDED to clear basic minions. It is NOT always intended to take out majors and bosses. However, that's exactly what happens when certain modifiers come into play. And it can be fun that way too. But if I'm going to be able to kill literally everything in my path with my fatebringer, then I really have no problem with it being exotic. I have PLENTY of legendary special weapons and heavy weapons that would NEVER SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY if Fatebringer was back as it was before. Bungie WANTS you to change weapons to suit the situation. That's the point of there being so many options out there, and why you have 9 extra slots for each piece of gear. You carry around an arsenal, you should probably be putting it to good use.

The problem is that you STILL have the same problem of Y1 - only a few weapons have the elemental burn. And thereafter, its compounded by the fact that those weapons will now only be exotic. So you still have the same problem from Y1 (lack of other elemental options at the primary slot) AND you've compounded that further by trying to force a false choice of tradeoffs onto people, when most smart people will get around it by just switching loadouts right before a boss. You get the best of both worlds - no tradeoffs are actually made - and it comes at a cost of inconveniencing your player base. Like it or not, but elemental cores solves ALL of these issues by expanding the options people DO have rather than limiting them. The implementation scheme assures that raid weapons will still dominate early, and the raid-specific perk will ensure that they're still the most powerful weapons INSIDE the raid. Outside the raid, other weapons can actually be made to compete with the raid weapons because you can take the advantage raid weapons have and impart that advantage onto a different weapon of your choice. If people want an elemental damage exotic? So be it! Let them make it. If not? Let them take whatever gun they DO like, and upgrade it with elemental damage. That's how you create diversity! You have a number of GOOD options at all slots. Honestly, I see your point regarding the tradeoffs issue, but I see it as a minor inconvenience that can become the source of major annoyance. I also don't see it as resolving the primary issues with elemental primaries in Y1 - that our options of elemental primaries are LIMITED to begin with which reduces choice. And those special and heavy weapons you equip while your using your elemental primaries to blast your way through a strike? Just TOKEN usage. Your not actually going to get many kills with either of those weapons seeing as how you will likely rely on the elemental primary to mop up the mobs of underlings. Overall, i just don't see the logic in it. BTW I DO respect your opinion on the matter, but I just don't agree that this was the best choice for the game. I still see it as perpetuating the same issues that lead them to removing elemental primaries to begin with.

Elemental cores will ruin the uniqueness of the year 1 weapons you hold so dearly. The way they're doing it in AoT will let them stay that way. Making them exotic forces you into choosing whether the element is worth sacrificing the use of another exotic, and I'm okay with that. It worked for Zhalo. If you don't want to sacrifice another exotic, you don't have to. You can CHOOSE to use a legendary version of the same gun that you planned on using. Or you can use ANY OTHER primary. You don't believe it, but this will be the most diverse era in Destiny PvE history. And I'm very glad it isn't going to go stale and elitist as it did with Fatebringer/black hammer/Gjallarhorn

[quote]Elemental cores will ruin the uniqueness of the year 1 weapons you hold so dearly. [/quote] Therein lies the ACTUAL issue though. If you want them to be unique - nothing was wrong with how they were in Y1 so they shouldn't have been changed. Don't fix what isn't broken right? But Bungie determined that this WAS the problem. They stood out too much - so they nerfed them down to size by removing their elemental damage. That turned out to be a bad answer, as most people actually liked elemental primary weapons. This is going to be my last post on the topic as I think we're at the point where we just need to agree to disagree. But my point is that they haven't broadened the spectrum of elemental damage primaries available. So what made them problematic in Y1 is STILL going to be currently present, regardless of whether they are exotic or legendary. Your choice is going to be obvious- stick with elemental primary weapons and carry around your G-Horn/Sword/Sleeper in your back pocket just in case crap goes down. As I stated before, the "tradeoff" choice you and others keep trumpeting simply won't materialize because people can always change loadouts mid-activity. When they wanted each weapon to have a role and fill a niche, I DON'T think they actually meant that we should have to get in and out of our inventory to access/equip/unequip those weapons. For me, it just comes down to common sense. If Y1 elemental primaries were problematic because they were limited to a handful of weapons that had them, limiting them to a handful of EXOTIC weapons is not going to solve the problem because you still have a limited number of weapons with the elemental burn.

Considering the number of viable elemental primaries is about to increase from 1 to 19, I'd say it's going in the right direction. That's actually 1 more than there was back then.

Yeah but truthfully, nobody is going to use the Kings Fall ones. Cocoon is a nice perk - on a weapon with slow reload like a chain gun. It's a useless perk on a primary when outlaw, reactive reload, etc. are better. I'm not familiar with the guns from WoTM. It could be that this was ALL they could do given the fact that they failed to put elemental damage on primaries, so all the old Y2 raid weapons still out there couldn't be upgraded retroactively, so they had to make them exotic versions - and they just chose to make ALL of them exotic after that. I'd prefer that this was the case over this being the permanent format moving forward in Y2. But you catch my drift. Sure, the number is going to increase somewhat, but as far as choices go - we're still going to be limited to a degree on the weapons people will choose in that slot. And that is my point to begin with. If you want more loadout diversity, just make elemental damage widely available through some means on all other weapons. I just don't see that this is going to change much by throwing 4 more weapons into the mix (the ones from WoTM- i'm overlooking KF ones because cocoon meh on a primary). I think the same complaints will eventually arise, mainly because what they did was not specifically address the issue.

A. Cocoon is good, and works even better when using multiple weapons with cocoon. B. Kings Fall weapons also do bonus damage to taken I looked at your raid completions, and now I understand why you think the way you do. Most of your playtime is far back when there was an ultimate cookie cutter loadout that everyone strived to achieve. Well it's not supposed to be that way. The trade offs are there, you're just blind to them because you don't raid. There is far more weapon diversity nowadays then there ever was back then, and throwing in the raid primaries in the way that they are was the only way that they could conserve that. Your inexperience speaks for itself. I'm done.

Ok, now I'm a little miffed. We can agree to disagree, but there is no need for the disrespect. 1) [quote]Cocoon is good, and works even better when using multiple weapons with cocoon. [/quote] It would be a good perk if the perk didn't take up a slot where you could have gotten a better random perk. If it was an ADDITIONAL extra perk like Oracle Disruptor or Hive Disruptor on the old raid guns, it would be a good perk. But as configured - no, not really a great perk. It's not BAD, it's just not great - which is what we want from our raid guns. 2) [quote]B. Kings Fall weapons also do bonus damage to taken[/quote] That modifier is ALSO available on other weapons. I have a perk that grants additional damage to taken enemies on my Darkblade's Spite. It's not unique, and it doesn't trump the damage output from other guns like Spindle, ToM, etc. 3) [quote]Most of your playtime is far back when there was an ultimate cookie cutter loadout that everyone strived to achieve. [/quote] You are making presumptions about me that you know NOTHING about. Yes, I used the cookie cutter weapons now and then (FB, VoC, etc.) but I also used Word of Crota, Fang of Ir Yut, Oversoul Edict, etc. I tried to rotate my loadout to fit combat situations and when I didn't need a particular loadout to do well, like on the nightfall, I just fiddled around with other guns for S/G's. It was a way to test out how a kinetic damage gun felt BEFORE i took it into the crucible - where I made heavy use of other NON-Cookie cutter guns. To presume that the only reason I think the way I do is because I'm a cookie cutter kid is quite insulting, especially when you know NOTHING about me or the way I played, and you couldn't possibly get that information by looking at my overall playtime or raid completions. Speaking of which?... 4) [quote]There is far more weapon diversity nowadays then there ever was back then[/quote] Wrong. I used Hung jury throughout most of TTK and had no reason to switch. HC's were handicapped in PVE thanks to PVP changes, I don't like PR's and Auto's lack the range for all around general PVE function. So I used Hung Jury or Treads upon stars for more than a Year, and there really wasn't any need to change. I saw SO MANY other people who did the same thing, or people on here complaining of the same thing: 1 Year plus of Hung Jury. Or Villany. Or Hawksaw. That's it. Most common loadouts in Y2? Hung Jury/Hawksaw - Spindle/1k Stare - Squillum's Terminus or Sword. So much for diversity.... [quote]5) Your inexperience speaks for itself. [/quote] Really? I've never ever been called inexperienced in this game after the amount of time I put into it. Your analysis of how my hours played are allocated is correct but you neglect to discern WHY that maybe. Perhaps the reason why I played was to raid and the drive to raid was to get the best endgame loot - and that was taken away in Y2. The only reason to grind raids was to get to max light, which means nothing because light level is functionally capped for 95% of the content you do. It was just grinding for the sake of grinding and it took the fun out of the game, which is WHY i have less time played in Y2. Y2 was reduced to nothing more than strikes or PVP and those aren't meat and potatoes for me. THAT is why my time is skewed towards Y1. Another reason why I don't have a ton of KF/Y2 raid completions? Because there simply is no incentive to DO the raids. No added benefit. The weapons aren't better than where you can get elsewhere in the game, and yet the content is still harder to do. People always take the easiest path to the best loot - and the best loot was definitely NOT allocated in the raids in Y2. Your ignorance and lack of respect is far from warranted in this situation. We simply disagree. [quote]I'm done.[/quote] I certainly hope so because your lack of respect tells me you have nothing more to add to this conversation. Good day.