There are a lot of useless/underused weapon archetypes which are overlooked because their performance simply isn't as good as other archetypes of weapons within the same weapon class. I'll give examples below:
1. Low impact/High RoF snipers. There is no reason to use them over high impact snipers because their damage output is less in PVE, they offer no advantage other than a faster shot rate, and in PVP, they are the only sniper achetype now that cannot revive-snipe.
2. Highest Rof/lowest impact chainguns. A good example is the Vanguard chaingun (Diluvian or something like that). They do less damage, have shorter range, and are often FAR LESS stable than high impact, lower RoF chain guns, and they share all the same disadvantages that are for chainguns globally (reload speed, ammo capacity, etc.).
3. Lowest impact/short range shotguns. A good example of this is the Crucibabies shotgun "In Times of Need." This gun's base stats offer terrible combo of low RoF (similar to Party Crasher), Low impact, and the shortest base range of any shotgun I have seen in this game other than Lord of Wolves, which is actually a Pulse Rifle. Absolutely ZERO reason to use this shotgun in particular, and other shotguns in the low impact/higher Rof archetype.
These are a few of the weapons archetypes that need a little love. They should be changed so that we have an actual reason to use these weapons. I'll even give Bungie some spoon-fed examples of changes they could make to make these weapons desireable.
1. Have sniper rifle impact dictate how many rounds are in a magazine and how many rounds the sniper can carry. Example? Highest impact snipers should carry the least ammo and have the smallest mag capacity (average 3 round mag base, goes to 4 with right perks). Moderate snipers carry a middling amount of ammo and have a magazine capacity of 4 base, goes to 6 with right perks. Highest RoF snipers carry the most ammo and have the largest base magazine capacity (6 base, goes to 9 with right perks).
2. Change sniper handling speed based on impact archetype and make Highest RoF Sniper rifles the only snipers on which you can get an ambush/snappy scope that would allow people to use them to quickscope. This makes people make choices between a higher impact sniper with slower handling that can res-snipe or a sniper that can be used to quickscope, but cannot res snipe.
3. Low impact, highest Rof Chainguns should have double the average magazine size. I see them with around 50-60 rounds in the magazine, but due to how inefficient they are because of damage drop off combined with poor stability, doubling the mag capacity would help make them more appealing vs. higher impact chain guns with smaller mags and longer range.
4. OR, make low impact chainguns reload faster on average. Or;
5. Make low impact chainguns handle significantly faster. After all, its a light machine gun so its not as heavy- it should handle faster right? RIGHT? This might make them have more appeal in PVP...OR;
6. Increase their ammo held in reserve to make up for the fact that they are weaker and do less DPS.
7. For lowest impact shotguns, make them all pistol-grip shotguns with no stock and let them handle SIGNIFICANTLY faster than high impact shotguns. This archetype of shotgun should be able to be pulled out on the fly to blast your opponent before he can ready his own high impact shotgun.
8. Make low impact shotguns the only shotguns on which kneepads is available. This plays into the shotguns playstyle best anyways. Evade fire, get in close and personal, and pepper your opponent with a rapid fire shotgun.
9. Make full auto only available on the lowest impact, high rof shotguns. See description above.
10. Allow low impact shotguns to reload faster. This gives them an advantage over Higher impact shotguns as well.
These are just some examples Bungie could consider to try to provide us some incentive to use these weapons. As of right now, there is literally no reason to use any of these weapon archetypes. Just get yourself a Spindle or 1k Stare and your good. Go get yourself a Squillium's Terminus, and your set. Shotgun? Party Crasher or Conspiracy Theory. And your good.
If Bungie wants weapon diversity, we need reasons to make uses of all these kinds of weapons. Because they don't compete on paper, and if they don't compete on paper, we won't use them in the field.
[Edit] I see other people making posts on what other archetypes of weapons are underused/overlooked so I will add them below. However, this list was never intended to be an all-inclusive list. Rather it was intended to be a list that provides examples of guns that are underused and how Bungie could go about improving them.
Other guns that are underutilized are:
1. High Impact/Low ROF PR
2. High impact/Low RoF AR
3. Mod Impact/Mod RoF PR (I see a few of these though. Hawksaw most prominently).
4. Sidearms in PVE was mentioned. I tend to agree.
If I see any others worth mentioning, I'll add them here. Thanks for the support guys!
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2 RepliesThe high rate of fire snipers can in fact revive snipe. The Extrasolar and Tao Hua Yan both can. Weylorans is the only one that can't.
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1 ReplyLow impact shotguns ontop of ammo increase should also be allowed to get shot package
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Maybe give us a reason to use high stability rocket launchers? Like, why the hell do rocket launchers cater to a stability build?
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Fantastic ideas, another you could add is high ROF rocket launchers.
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Low rate of fire/high impact pulse rifles -if it takes three bursts to kill regardless then why fire slower? Low rate of fire/high impact auto rifles -if it can't compete against other midrange weapons why should I use a slow rate of fire weapon in close quarters? Low rate of fire/high impact handcannons -if it takes three shots to kill regardless then why would I use a gun that fires slower? High rate of fire/low impact scout rifles -Worthless at close range, below mediocre at mid range, worthless at long range.
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4 RepliesAs I saw your edit adding handguns in PvE I must say this: They only feel to have a place in PvP as of now. This IB I've been running Universal Remote + my IB handgun, and I'll tell you it melts. But I do like much more PvE, and handguns being my favourite type of weapon along with Machine guns (specially SGA) and seing that sidearms are nothing more that a "not so good" plan B when you run out of ammo on your primary weapon just makes me sad. The only advantadge they have it's the speed you can ready them and shoot, and they lack close-quartes damage like a shotgun or long and heavy DPS like a sniper, so there's no real point on using them, but I don't know what they could do to improve them in PvE, I just don't even have the slightest idea. Maybe an integrated silencer for PvE activities? Or, maybe, if you have a sidearm equipped you gain a bonus to how all your weapons handle and/or reload, or even faster movement speed since they are light and small weapons, not like a sniper or a shotgun. Anyway the bonus they gain should be added to PvE only since they are fantastic on PvP already.
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4 RepliesMy thought on snipers is pretty simple. They should award precision. Question is, why do the Year 2 Snipers have so much aim assist? That's not very "rewarding".
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4 RepliesWhile I do not agree wholeheartedly with how to increase their use, the argument still stands and I will agree; the archetypes listed are underused and are certainly not viable options in many a theater of war.
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1 ReplyMew sadly Bungie just wants ppl to snipe so probably will never change
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3 RepliesRange def needs to matter. High impact pulse rifles would be beneficial if the mid to lowers had higher drop off. The last word needs to be brought down an bit to reflect its range limitation( right now I can take on most pulse rifles.)
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2 RepliesReasons? If its fun to use, use it. Stop being a sheep. Oh wait..another hunter that switched to a titan...yeah
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2 RepliesSO I like most of this. In my humble and probably uninformed opinion I think you could balance sniper/shotgun types if you raised the amount of time it takes to ready a weapon based on damage/rof type. No more 1k stare to an instant LW combo, but you could do it with a weyorlands march and so forth.
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3 RepliesThis is exactly why I miss year 1 weapons, my favourite chain gun was a prestige IV. It had a max rate of fire with an 88 round mag, I was lucky enough to roll it with field scout so I got 120 rounds in the mag. That was my baby in year one, oh have the times have changed..
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I agree that these weapons need revisiting to make them more viable. Hawksaw is actually really good, so that one might be a stretch. I actually got a Diluvian 10/4 with Counter Balance, Braced Frame and Persistence. It's a dream, even with only 60 rounds. I wish it was more like 80 rounds, but that would be a little OP. It's an extremely fun weapon and a great change of pace from Qillum's Terminus.
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2 RepliesEverryone needs to stop saying "chaingun".
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4 RepliesReasons. Plural. Ok. Challenge accepted. [quote]1. Low impact/High RoF snipers. [/quote] You ever stack killed a small group of majors in the Undying Mind strike in the Heroic playlist? I think you don't use a sniper during that part. It's lovely with firefly btw. You ever run crucible? Damage output is meaningless and it still kills cross map. Now if they were to increase perk tree's for snappy and agile scope choices? Good. But if not? Still great weapons. [quote]2. Highest Rof/lowest impact chainguns.[/quote] Oh, those are the up close and personal chain guns. Very useful for dismantling loads upon loads of enemies while mobile in prison of elders, strikes, and nightfalls for PvE. PvP? Why use them? Very simple. Every map has, and I've counted most of them, area's where MG's don't equate to blowing someone up or can reflect off of hard surfaces with any of the specialized rounds. I personally like them on maps like Thieves Den or Crossroads or in gametypes like Inferno with no radar. If you want the blunt reason though: Because it's maximum exchange in close quarters. It's very, very difficult to kill a MG in close range without killing yourself primarily because it's maximum "effective" range is twice that of shotguns. [quote]3. Lowest impact/short range shotguns.[/quote] Hey, immobus? Meet Lonestar. Lonestar? Immobus. And that's just on my titan main. Highest RoF shotguns with full auto will forever speak for themselves... actually anything full auto really speaks for itself, but in PvE? Ever seen what happens when 1, 2, or 3 guardians kill a tank, boss, ect. using those shotguns? Warpriest was killed by a mock test group in which they bombarded the guy, backed out, reloaded, jumped back in. They ran it enough times that the rapid concession is literally the fastest to kill him. PvP- Immobus for one is a great gun to send everyone a crystal clear message that Titans have the best shotgun in the game. Sorry, but no other gun has that perk for a reason and in the right hands is a title wave of punishment. As for other high RoF shotguns? Each of those has significantly fast reload times which means it's a flank shotgun. No need for one, two, or even three enemies when you combine blink with those or when you need to clear an area of hostiles. [quote]2. Change sniper handling speed based on impact archetype and make Highest RoF Sniper rifles the only snipers on which you can get an ambush/snappy scope that would allow people to use them to quickscope.[/quote] I'm happy people can't quickscope. We don't need a bunch of private or otherwise matches where people are doing just that. It also paves the way for new arguments into letting people use synth's in matchmaking.
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4 RepliesEdited by Baalwulf06: 8/16/2016 8:02:12 PMSigned 100% Edit: this reminds me of a badass machine gun I found back in Vanilla. It was the FWC the Culling machine gun. Max ROF/Low impact type. Arc damage, had persistence, field scout, and feeding frenzy. With field scout (long before the nerf) it had 149 round capacity. It was a glorious example of a body mulching high fire tool of death. Oh I miss it so much
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For anyone wondering. Chaingun = Machine Gun
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Really the only thing I don't agree on is making full auto something only for low impact shotguns.
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1 ReplyAll are good for infusion and legendary marks.
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5 RepliesThis is only vaugely related, but I've mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again: I want an exotic sniper that's the fastest RoF/Lowest Impact we've seen -- like, only does 140 to the head and 60 to the body -- but handles like a dream and has an ammo capacity worth writing home about. And, of course, a snappy scope to boot. Just throwing this out there. More on topic, I feel High Impact/Low RoF Scout Rifles also need a little love. In PvE, my Iron Banner one does a lot of work. Bring it to PvP, though... It ain't fun. Maybe the Jade Rabbit works okay -- I certainly wouldn't know -- but I can't get that archetype to work for me.
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Edited by sister-hawk: 8/16/2016 10:21:22 PMMax RoF machine guns actually have fantastic DPS, but they are best utilized in PvE against majors or bosses that don't have a push-back mechanic. With a proper stability build they can melt tougher targets in a heartbeat. Range is irrelevant. Even with minimum range, my Diluvian experiences no damage falloff within its practical usable range. These are up close and personal weapons, no doubt. Don't waste your ammo with them on ads, and using them in crucible is a very bad idea. But there's nothing wrong with that. They have their place.
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2 RepliesBecause people wanted variety. So they gave it in the most garbage way possible.
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2 RepliesEdited by Ve7n00m: 8/16/2016 1:51:12 PMRes sniping is cheap, like Shoulder charge, Shade Step, Flame Shield, Grenades, Melees, supers, Guns and anything else in the game. If we don't use or take advantage of these things this game could be great!
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14 RepliesEdited by The Senate: 8/16/2016 4:20:07 PMMod Impact/Mod RoF PR is the archetype for Nirwen's Mercy or Red Death (maybe apple of dischord and smite of merain too?). Hawksaw is a Low Impact/high RoF PR (just like PDX-45). Grasp of malok is one of the relatively rare Lowest Impact/Fastest RoF. So yes, Mod Impact/Mod RoF PR's could use a boost. Nirwen's Mercy and its brethren used to destroy in PvP, and were at least as good if not better than the Low impact/High RoF types like Hawksaw. Re: the meta when Taken King came out. That being said, the High impact/Low RoF PRs like spare change, herja-d, lyudimila-d need a buff much more than the Mod variety. Sidearms are interesting because I'm not sure what they could do in buff them. Any more range or damage would effectively make closer range hand cannons obsolete as you have almost higher DPS than the TLW with a sidearm up close right now.