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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
Edited by SpaceMarine8584: 1/7/2016 6:17:19 PM
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Bungie is conditioning you to accept microtransactions

So we know that Bungie deliberately exploits the same addictive behavior mechanics, used to keep gamblers addicted, in destiny, to keep players playing. Bungie's current head of User Research, John Hopson, holds a Ph.D. in Behavioral and Brain Sciences from Duke University. Before he was hired by Bungie in 2002, John wrote an article explaining formulas to get gamers addicted to games, which many were based on lab mice experiments. u/stauffenburg at the destiny subreddit wrote up this summary, the full reddit post follows below in the quote. [url=https://m.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/2itlvw/destiny_addictive_formula_detailed_by_bungie/][/url] Initially, we were promised that microtransactions would be cosmetic only. However, with SRL that changed, ever so slightly. With SRL, a supposed "free*" update, you had to spend $10 on a record book, so you could keep the gear you earned and grinded for. Now call me crazy, but having to spend $10, half the price of 2 sets of DLC (The dark below and house of wolves), just to keep rewards you earned after hours of effort, is not free. Besides, with the DLC, we got new gear, new missions, new raid and PoE. With SRL we got 2 tracks and terrible, inconsistent physics. This was both a test and bungie training is to accept microtransactions as normal. [b]After all, why spend months developing DLC, when players will pay half as much for much smaller pieces of content?[/b] This is exactly why bungie isn't releasing any DLC in year 2. This is exactly why most mobile games are "free to play" and so profitable. See the South Park episode about free to play for a great summary of the underlying mechanics, which, coincidentally, are the same addictive mechanics exploited by Destiny. So now here we are, awaiting an update, which will include more microtransactions, [b]I promise you[/b]. The players who don't like microtransactions have left and are already leaving, but bungie doesn't care. A small number of users can easily spend 10× as much on microtransactions than regular customers would, who just buy the expansion once or twice a year. Just look at Payday or DayZ for examples of gaming communities which were outraged by microtransactions, left, and ultimately killed off the games, only for the devs to finally realize their mistake and reverse course. [b]But it was already too late and the games effectively died[/b]. Each additional item offered via microtransactions, lowers your resistance to microtransactions, making you more likely to buy them. Hiding behind the "it's only cosmetic!" excuse works until eventually, most of the community accepts microtransactions. We already see them used to "skip the grind" which is hilarious, because bungie made the grind so long, purely to entice you to pay to skip it! People are paying to [b]not have to play a game they paid for[/b]! Once microtransactions become more acceptable, you'll see heavy ammo synths, 3 of coins, sparrows, emblems, shaders, ships, all for sale for silver. Then one day, once the remaining customers accept microtransactions, you'll finally see pay to win. Death by degrees. The community won't accept big changes all at once, but given enough time and very small changes, one after another, you eventually get to the same place. Only now, the community is on board. A frog will jump out of a pot of water already boiling; but if you put it in cool water, and warm it gradually, by the time the frog realized the water is too hot, it is already too late. This is happening in politics currently. I'm posting so that doesn't happen to destiny also. I love what this game was advertised as, and what it could be. I'll be damned if I will sit quietly and let some greedy executive ruin what could've been one of the best games. Finally, here's a great video summary of the addictive mechanics bungie exploits to keep you playing and paying : [url=http://www.gamespot.com/videos/the-point-destiny-the-hardcore-gamers-slot-machine/2300-6425852/][/url] ... [spoiler][quote] I have been doing some serious digging, and have stumbled upon a article([url=http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3085/behavioral_game_design.php][/url]) written in 2001 by Bungie's current head of User Research. John Hopson(Head of User Research) holds a Ph.D. in Behavioral and Brain Sciences from Duke University and is currently the chairman of the IGDA Games User Research SIG. Before he was hired by Bungie in 2002, John wrote an article explaining formulas to get gamers addicted to games, which many were based on lab mice experiments. Once you read the article you can see tons of these examples for each of his formulas to get people hooked on a game. I would post each theory in its entirety on here but I feel like that violates the guidelines because its pretty much the whole article. If I can post it that way then let me know, but for now I will post each theory title in the article and summarize it for the lazy and relate it to the destiny formula. CONTINGENCIES AND SCHEDULES To keep lab rats interested in food and extend the supply of food on hand they limit giving food to the rat to certain circumstances, instead of every time he does what he's supposed to do to get food. You can see this being used in Destiny's reward and loot system. It also mentions giving random power ups which can be related to PvP Heavy Weapon Ammo drops, and how your guaranteed one super in an match without doing good RATIOS AND INTERVALS Talks about two different contingencies, fixed ratios schedules and interval variable schedules. Fixed Ratio- Is a very distinct pattern that gives a burst of activities to do at a time but then followed by a long pause. For example, in RPG you try to level up by gaining experience but once you hit the new level you have to go get more experience to try to get to the next level. The "pause" is what keeps you wanting to push forward into the game, but if a "pause" is too long players will walk away. Some long pauses can be positive if it makes the gamer concentrate on another game feature that could get them hooked on. This can be related to having factions to level up to reach a high enough level to buy certain items from that faction. Leveling up new weapons and gear can create this burst of activity of trying to work your way up to unlock new mods. Everybody can relate to this long "pause" in Destiny, and I think they had a goal with it to get you start a new character where you literally restart the cycle that will keep giving you stuff to grind towards. Variable Ratio Schedules- Is a set limit to reach before being rewarded but the limit is different everytime. The limit will be randomly generated each time and the gamer will not know the set limit before the next reward. This encourages gamers to play knowing they have a chance for good reward with the mystery of when and what you could possibly be rewarded. This could be a possible relation to how the cryptarch decrypted engrams before patch 1.02. But this is the reason we do raids, strikes, and daily/weekly activites. SPECIAL CASES This goes on to explain other less common theories to game addiction that can be effective if used in the right way. Chain Schedules- Activities that have multiple stages that normally have form of puzzles and timed based enemies. This is 100% talking about the idea mechanics of the raids. Extinction- Game mechanics built in to gradually reduce a spawn in the game after every time it is received or killed. This results to eventually receiving nothing and/or enemies stop spawning in. I could be wrong but the only thing I can think of in Destiny that is similar to this is the invisible ascendant material limit for completing Public Events. At some point you won't receive anyhting but glimmer after so many public events. I haven't figured out if its weekly, daily, or planet based. Avoidance- is where the objective is to do something so that something negative won't happen. He uses his evidence with lab mice to prove this will keep you doing something. The example is where the mice were "shocked every so often" but the shock would be delayed for 30 seconds if they pressed a lever. There might be more places in the game where this is used but the only ones I'm coming up with are the raid. The beginning you hold pillars and avoid Minotaurs from coming in because it will stop the forming of the tower, you also have a similar concept on the first boss where you can't let them sacrifice. Lastly, we shoot the oracles to prevent being marked for a time initiated instadeath(very similar to the rat test). HOW TO MAKE PLAYERS PLAY HARD Here is where he brings in all of his theories on "what makes us want more in a game". He pretty much says the game needs to have his theorized aspects all tied into the game in the right amount of proportions. HOW TO MAKE PLAYERS PLAY FOREVER Here he says games need to always have something new for the player to do and have a consistent rewards with constant probabilities. I have read other articles that have bashed his article years ago. That makes me wonder if the arcticle was editted with rewording or removed some of the content since its original posting. Because in his post in 2012(http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/172409/10_years_of_behavioral_game_design_.php) he seems to have alot of influence by bungie to give a explanation from a post 10 years ago. Let me know what y'all think of this. I know its pretty much old news but I doubt anybody had actually seen a detailed description on how to make you addicted to a game and then that same person 13 years later releases a game built upon his core principles. [/quote][/spoiler]
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#Destiny

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  • BuNp with me!

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    • I really don't care and is not a big issue You and only you and you and Yea you to all of you Have freedom to place your money were you want it to go Weather your satisfied with that or not is irelivant You don't have to buy emotes You don't have to buy silver It is not a must do or you will be below every one else Sparrows argument They are only cosmetic And can get them other ways as well not forced to buy them The 25 light argument Woopty do you saved a couple hours and are able to start right away in the taken king Only has a slight advantage but the one that did not buy it will get to 25 and 40 his way and is not in a game breaking power advantage or disadvantage When they get to 40 The they are going to have pay to win come this is stepping stones argument OK cool that's what you think you can show me how other company's have done this And how it could happen But. .. but... is that what it is ? No People that don't play planet side only Hurd it's pay to win witch it is not You can get all the guns and stuff with experience in the game it's a grind he'll yes but can you do it most defiantly But back to what's at hand As far as I know Bungie has not put a pay to buy a gun that's over powered then any other gun and gives it such power that it is a have to have gun or armor of your Saver stunted in the crusible And we're people tell you you must have that gun or armor to get in there raids or night falls Cause it makes it a cake walk and the only way to get it is to pay real life money And as far as I can tell and you can tell We have don't have that at all I can get all the guns and all the weapons All the grimior All the ships shaders bountys with game play with put spending real life money on in game purchases Yes it could come till then I don't see it I'm not worried

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      • Edited by Urgblatt: 1/10/2016 8:18:22 PM
        [quote]Bungie is conditioning you to accept microtransactions.[/quote] It's not working on me. :-\

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      • that was very persuasive

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      • I don't agree but I have to say that this is very well written, do you have an English degree?

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      • Ps. There is nothing wrong with the way they made the game Your addicted to a game you like to play Nothing wrong with that grind is not bad and it is enjoyable Every dollar spent has been worth it to me over 1200 hours $60 on ps3 $30 for expansion pass $60 of ps4 $80 for digital collectors edition witch gave me a digital copy of the complete game so I don't have to change disks as much Ima say $50 worth of sliver for emotes and stuff that I felt and still do worth it due to I enjoy using them Over 1200 hours of fun and rising Remember you choose the way you spend your money You choose how much you play the game You choose it not them forcing any thing on you

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        • *plays warframe for a week* Kek Destiny microtransactions

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        • bungie has always been screwing people over with destiny. gives us nothing knowing the vegas loot system would make it something

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        • It's only cosmetic!!! Character boost = £40 That is not cosmetic! I bet in destiny 2 it will be extremely hard to lv up so you are more likely to buy a character boost!

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        • I accept them and spend money on them. The amount of money I've blown on CSGO and CoD like advanced warfare (advanced supply drops) or bo3 (codpoints) would kill you that are against it. My friend calls me stupid all the time but that's because he's broke and can't buy them even if he wanted to.

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          • Nice post!

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          • Yup, I have been seeing posts of people saying they would buy exotics and other gear, haha I've never bought any silver lol. If I see an expansion for free or if they update the old raids and POE I'd buy it but so far it's not worth it

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          • I just keep it simple if I like what's going on I stay if not I leave. I for one have gained a dislike for Bungie, so no more purchases from Bungie. Just keep it simple.

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          • was a good read, thank you for bringing intelligence back to this forum.

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          • I pretty much agree. I've got over 1000 hours between my PS and XB accounts but have had enough for now. I logged in to get my free strange coins and motes then did the daily crucible bounty to qualify for the shader. I'll play the next IB on PS4 to get the new gear and may join a game or 2 if a friend asks but other than that I don't have any big reason to play Destiny now. I'm not grinding to get to 320 any longer as I've accepted it's pointless. I'm not going to grind 3oC to try and get a primary engram that will hopefully decrypt into a Jade Rabbit because after going through at least 25 disappointing decodes I accept I'm not getting it. I may well still be a lab rat in the great Destiny experiment as I will still play it at certain times but the cage door's open so we can come and go as we please.

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          • Edited by Toketotem: 1/10/2016 8:01:40 AM
            Gaming for the last decade has conditioned me to accept them. They are here to stay because people buy them. If people didn't actually buy the crap this trend would have died before it started. "A fool and his money are soon parted."

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          • Edited by Jetterbobby: 1/9/2016 7:58:52 AM
            I didn't get the record book and I have all my stuff still am I missing something? Also things that are microtransactions do not give anyone an advantage as of right now that I am aware of. At the end of the day you have to agree that the company does have a right to make money to support them selves and fund future projects. They made a fascinating world that has captivated millions of people. They have every right to take advantage of that, it is business.

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            • People outside the forums (friends, family, etc.) Ask why I still care about this game even though I stopped playing what is 4 months now. I never ever post anything on the forums that's a debate topic, and have commented only fun stuff. The reason I don't uninstall this app(though my game already being uninstalled) even though it can be debated that these are the most toxic forums of any game to this day, is becuase I have a SHRED of hope that bungie will make a 180 with this Destiny. Microtransactions was kinda the nail in the coffin IMO, but it never hurts to check on the game. It's in bungie's best interest to keep doing what they're doing though, purely from a monetary point of view. You COULD put in hundreds of hours to try to restore cut content that was destroyed becuase of Activision, or make a mini game and charge 10$ just to check stats. At this point, if you think passion is the driving point of this game and not the money, I feel you've been having a little too much fun with emotes.

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            • No, OP. They're [i]trying[/i] to condition me for microtransactions. But I don't stand for it.

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            • Looked at the festival of light, logged off deleted my characters. Seen where it was going and got the fk out.

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              • I abandoned ship 2 months ago. Destiny is not the game it should have been.

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                • This is why I will never spend money on silver. An if it gets to the point where it does mess up my game play, I'll move to something else. Also at the end of the day they are running a business to gain profits. You can either see the B.S. and go around, or get caught up in the ish.

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                • Dayz and this game died because they're garbage

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                • TL;DR - don't buy microtransactions

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                • I hear you and understand where you are coming from . And I still don't care . And I'll tell you why . What I do with my money it is my responsibility. If what I buy brings me a satisfaction , where is the problem ? " but you are being misguided by a shiny carrot !! The company is evil it's not giving you the content you deserve ! They are milking you for it !! " And what company isn't ? I think that people buy 300-400 dollar sneakers is the most stupidest thing ever , and I think it's a waste of money because those shoes don't last . but You don't see me going their forums and hark and demand that people see the folly of their ways and spend their money in better ways . If they find enjoyment in doing an unboxing of the latest Jordan's or Nike's what's to say that my way is any better . We know bungie is doing micro transactions, and they will continue to do it until they see that route is no longer profitable . You can choose to buy it . You can choose not to buy it . What you cannot do is tell people how they should or shouldn't spend their money. We live in a society the gives people the freedom to do with their own money whatever they want . We aren't some great crusaders that will change the world , those days are over . If you want to change something you need more than an opinion , you need money and power and since you and me lack any of that we won't be changing the way the industry works. So thank you for trying to help . But unless you go out and buy bungie the game won't change .

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                  • Need 3 for Trials of Kings Fall group, must have full SRL gear!!! [spoiler]nice try[/spoiler]

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