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11/4/2022 12:36:01 PM
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It is truly fascinating how people want every class to be the same efficient as others.
"Buhu, Chaos Reach does not enough damage as Thundercrash + Cuirass of Falling Star does"
[i]Bungie makes the super recharge 2 minutes faster[/i]
"Buhu, Chaos Reach still does not enough damage as Thundercrash + Cuirass of Falling Star does"
Have you ever understood in your entire gaming career why classes exist? They exist to have different playstyles that are differently effective in different situations.
Chaos Reach is NOT MEANT to be a Thundercrash-like heavy hitter. It is supposed to be a "use more often on multiple targets" super.
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You're incorrect. Chaos reach is supposed to be a heavy damage dealing super like thudercrash. If you need proof of that, just look at the vidoc when bungie first reveals it. It's never lived up to that vid.
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Edited by Gibbon, the Ape Defector: 11/5/2022 7:09:18 PMDo I really need to mention that that was 3 years ago That's definitely no longer current lol Also back in the day it very much lived up to that. People asking for Geomag in LFG and all that crap.
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What does time have to do with what kinda super it's suppose to be? It's still suppose to be a damage dealer, but because of nerfs and changes, it lags behind in that. And no, even with og geomags, the super was only good. It never was what they described in the vidoc.
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This ain't it. Stormtrance is the horde clearing super. Chaos Reach is supposed to be what Nova Bomb is to Nova Warp.
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Thats a wonky take. Why would I use chaos reach to take down ads when my guns do that... Or stormtrance can do that... or grenades can do that... The fact is, Chaos Reach is a channel super, it SHOULD have higher DPS potential than it does. Roaming supers are primarily used for ad clear. Thundercrash can also be used for ad clear, but why would you when its got higher dps value? Chaos Reach is the same thing, it's simply hindered by the fact it's damage output lessens your overall dps.
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Lol. This is such a bad take. Chaos reach’s damage even against majors falls behind rapidly in endgame content. Not to mention it’s average damage resist and long duration makes you a sitting duck. The super’s total damage is on par with Cuirass thundercrash and Star-Eater Blade barrage but takes 6-7x as long. It gets out-DPSed by Linears, swords, Izanagi+Rockets, even Lord of Wolves now. So now you have a super with average total damage but lower DPS, meh utility against combatants due to its pretty lackluster hitbox (thanks to PvP) and currently sits as the longest cooldown one-off super (thankfully getting some adjustment next season). What good qualities does it have? What place does it have in the game? It doesn’t need to give crazy DPS. Either make it better at dealing with multiple targets (ex. Letting it jolt targets hit) or lean into its niche of high total damage (damage ramps up)
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Edited by Gibbon, the Ape Defector: 11/5/2022 2:59:07 AMThundercrash's identity completely stands in the way of total damage, so it cannot be used as a competitor against chaos reach in total damage. With Thundercrash, you then have to run back to your Well or a safe zone to continue damage, so the Thundercrash mechanically denies any total damage approach. Which means chaos reach has less competition. The only other thing is Blade barrage, which is getting adjusted slightly. And I imagine it will be enough to sufficiently close the gaps in these competitors you've shown. And in add-clear it's great. If you say it's not, you just haven't given it a fair shot. I use it in GM.
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Yeah no. Trying to tell me the super with an 8-12 second cast duration isn’t a total damage super and one that does 90% of its damage instantly is. Geomags leans directly into this. Increase of super’s total damage by extending its duration. If you’re using Thundercrash in a situation where you need to walk for more than 2 seconds back to cover, you’re using the wrong super. Also, yes I’ve used it in all content. In low end stuff it’s complete overkill on the trash adds and moves so slowly with such a small beam that it’s incredibly inefficient at add clear. In GMs the overkill value isn’t there but the same issues with dealing with multiple targets is still there. I’d take chaos reach into a GM over Storm trance, but Shadebinder does the add clear job better on warlock without needing to expose yourself for a long period of time.
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Even after the adjustment to blade barrage chaos reach will only deal 6% more damage in 4x as long.
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I made a main comment on OP explaining why CR has enough damage. Just go find that and get back to me, it's a relatively top comment
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Edited by ACROCANTHUS: 11/5/2022 7:20:08 PMYour points are weak at best. Chaos reach deals 1.05x the damage of thundercrash in twice the time Chaos reach deals 1.06x the damage of blade barrage in 4x the time. As it stands now chaos reach lags behind other dps supers in terms of damage to time investment. Buffing it's damage does not break the game because you invest significant time into using the super. Thundercrash and chaos reach having a similar role does not hurt the game because the supers are on different classes and will not be directly competing with each other. It's not a question of thundercrash or chaos reach, it's a I'm on x class so I will use x super. So buffing the damage or reducing the time are both viable solutions. As a damage super it will be used once per phase, reducing the cool down does not have any effect on the super's prowess as a dps super.
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[quote]Buffing it's damage does not break the game because you invest significant time into using the super.[/quote] The super is also strong at killing adds, being both pretty powerful and pretty fast, so it has to pay a price for that. [quote]Thundercrash and chaos reach having a similar role does not hurt the game because the supers are on different classes and will not be directly competing with each other. It's not a question of thundercrash or chaos reach, it's a I'm on x class so I will use x super.[/quote] The problem isn't competition, it's the subsuming of identities. Additionally, not everyone plays a single character; many people choose their character as well as subclass based on the activity being done. So if CR and TC were nearly identical, it would basically be like CR was deleted and warlocks were just given TC as a replacement. [quote]As a damage super it will be used once per phase, reducing the cool down does not have any effect on the super's prowess as a dps super.[/quote] Not everything revolves around the order and timing of raid damage phases; in GM, it is encouraged to use your super as often as possible. So in this case, it's a significant buff.
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"The problem isn't competition, it's the subsuming of identities. Additionally, not everyone plays a single character; many people choose their character as well as subclass based on the activity being done. So if CR and TC were nearly identical, it would basically be like CR was deleted and warlocks were just given TC as a replacement." My problem with this is it's always stated by the ones who get to have the more beneficial super. I'm sure they wouldn't be saying the same if theirs was the weaker one. That goes for everything, roaming supers, jump abilities.
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Edited by ACROCANTHUS: 11/5/2022 8:08:37 PMThe rest of the subclass and the other super are centered around killing ads. Using chaos reach for that fills a role already thoroughly filled on the subclass. Thundercrash and blade barrage, the two supers I'm comparing it to, can also be used to kill ads as effectively. So it's ad clear capability is not impressive. Thundercrash and blade barrage already occupy very similar identities and it isn't a problem, but chaos reach having a similar identity is? You're being inconsistent. And having two supers with similar roles and dps does not make them the same. Thundercrash puts you at risk by placing you near the boss, chaos reach places you in risk by making you a floating target. Both supers even with similar DPS and roles will still play differently and their identities will not be merged as you claim. So the buff is only a buff in content that almost no one plays? I'd much prefer a buff that makes it better in all content instead of content only available for half a season that a significant portion of players don't play. [spoiler]one thing to add, thank you for actually giving reasons and having a real conversation. Most other people I've talked to about this give no reason and just claim I'm wrong and they're right.[/spoiler]
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Edited by Gibbon, the Ape Defector: 11/5/2022 10:27:16 PM[spoiler]I weep for humanity because of all the monkey-brain I see in the forums, so academic conversation is something I want/need in my life lol. So I appreciate you too[/spoiler] First of all, I would be inconsistent if my trouble was with similarity of identity, but I think you're missing the nuance of my stance. Similarity is fine, but CR with a shorter time window is an idea that rapidly starts becoming identical to Thundercrash if the time window were to be shortened as a buff approach. So it's dangerous to make changes to the duration for that reason. Like let's say it was 3 seconds. Would that be more worth it than Thundercrash? In a GM I'd say yes because after 3 seconds of floating rather than 5 (or 6 rather than 10 with Geo), you're back under cover. And even though the delivery of damage is instant with Thundercrash, the running back afterward effectively puts a duration on it since the super is invoking the need for you to retreat after use. Of course, it's not always that simple; you don't always need to run back depending on when and where you use it. But this illustrates the problem: it's very muddy ground, which results in an understandable apprehension to make a change following this approach. Also I would add that GM is the standard I'm putting all this up against, to which you did and may fairly object. But since you asked, it's just a standard since it is one of the two main facets of endgame, the other being raids. With regard to the buff slated for CR, what I really mean to direct your attention to is anything outside of the clockwork timing of raid damage phases, which honestly includes everything except raids. All these things will be sharpened up by a reduction in cooldown. GM and raids are just the two main facets of endgame, so these are my first judgment standards. Finally, it's very common for people to say that CR's add-clear role can be filled by other things; other supers, exotics, and I even heard someone say a grenade once. But in using it as much I do I simply can't agree with that. The only way to know, though, is to give it enough love to have experience with the super in practice. Have you used CR ([u]correctly*[/u]) in high-end pve in the past couple months? If not, I'd suggest that. Or, if you're feeling particularly exploratory, the two of us can jump into a dungeon or master nightfall with competing supers and see in-person which is better in varying niches. If you aren't interested in that though, no problem at all. *Back when CR first came out, it was unequivocally a damage-meta super, but this isn't really the case anymore. So I always make sure people are checking themselves in every way before they say "I tried it and it's bad."
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It's been a while since I did high end pvp due to life, but I do have a history of using chaos reach and am fully aware of how effectively it can be used in high end PvE. But that is in a vacuum. I feel that the ability to constantly jolt everything as a stormcaller in addition to improved ability spam and weapon power will fill the role of ad clear chaos reach is being shoed into, and if I do want a super to use for ad clear, then stormcaller should be the better choice (you may [fairly] say that stormcaller is bad in GM content, but to that I say, buff stormcaller so that it fills the role it is supposed to) While I personally disagree that reducing the duration makes chaos reach identical to Thundercrash because of how functionally different they are and how their play styles will be much different, I can understand your point of view with it. As a final opinion, I do agree reducing the duration is not a buff I'd like for chaos reach, but I do think that in terms of power, it has fallen behind other supers and it's versatility doesn't make up for it. Something more than a cool down change is what I'd like for the super. One thing that was suggested to me was giving it the ability to crit. It could give it a buff as a damage super while making it more difficult to use, differentiating it from thundercrash, and still not making it too potent at crowd control. I'd actually like to play together because I want to like chaos reach and maybe seeing it used effectively could reignite the spark. The only problem with that is my general lack of time these days so I don't know if or when I'd be able to.
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Crits on CR is an interesting idea. But I don't think it's necessary, and there's a solid chance I could sell you on that I think. I think it's just very hard to fully understand the value of versatility because its implications are more nebulous than those of a super with a fixed identity and niche. But I've found that it's quite practical to have a super that you can just cast at any time and no matter what (or when or where), its effect will be sizable. With regard to meeting up in the game though, it seems smarter to continue that in DM's, so I'll just message you
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Also, as long as Chaos Reach is in this state, arc warlock will never see use in endgame content unless its for some triumph because Well will always remain better. That isn't a matter of nerfing Well, it's a matter of making Chaos Reach better at its job. It can clear ads fine if you like wasting your super for that instead of just shooting everything or someoly throwing a grenade to clear the room.
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If you think that guns and nades are better than CR, then I'd highly suggest that you just give it a try with an open mind in a GM (or Master if you don't like GM). You can say that you know all you need to know about something by reading its perks, but that's simply not enough, especially for something as nuanced as CR, trust me. One of the best examples I can find of "try it first" is Eriana's Vow. Its perks are bad; the exotic perk is "this gun is weird", like Coldheart's exotic perk, and the second perk basically says if you miss, you lose damage. Or at least that's how it feels when a weapon is in a league of its own; being rewarded for good aim on a weapon that is difficult to compare to others more feels like it's punishing you for missing. So I suggest to others to put these thoughts aside and try it because it has several valuable quality-of-life strengths. First, it has way less flinch than a sniper, and it's probably comparable to an LFR. Next, it has a huge mag that reloads itself. And last, its nearest effective range is way closer than a sniper, and it's far more maneuverable than an LFR, being a Small Arm and not a Rifle. And you'd only know one of these things from reading the perks. So before you compare CR to a grenade, make sure you really know what you're talking about. Try and squeeze out as much value from CR as you can in any difficult content (Raids, dungeons, nightfall) and honestly, I think you'll find something you didn't know.
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What you're missing is that there's plenty of even endgame content where you can use thundercrash and still be 6 feet away from the safety of a Well, thus losing far less dps than Chaos Reach since you can go back to blasting away with your guns immediately after. It's simple logic, channel super should equal more dps potential. Nobody is saying thundercrash should be nerfed, we just want Chaos Reach to be viable. It will NEVER be viable unless the dps is raised.
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Your argument is flawed. It's like saying Thundercrash should not have an AOE shockwave because it's meant to deal damage. Even with Geo Mags Chaos Reach doesn't even compare to the overall DPS that could be dished out by a Yeet Titan.
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[quote]It is truly fascinating how people want every class to be the same efficient as others. "Buhu, Chaos Reach does not enough damage as Thundercrash + Cuirass of Falling Star does" [i]Bungie makes the super recharge 2 minutes faster[/i] "Buhu, Chaos Reach still does not enough damage as Thundercrash + Cuirass of Falling Star does" Have you ever understood in your entire gaming career why classes exist? They exist to have different playstyles that are differently effective in different situations. Chaos Reach is NOT MEANT to be a Thundercrash-like heavy hitter. It is supposed to be a "use more often on multiple targets" super.[/quote] I get what you’re saying about different play styles, but the issue Warlocks are having is that they have nothing unique to them in terms of “power” except maybe healing, which now all classes have access too. You can’t preach that classes are meant to “fit different playstyles” when everything that makes Warlocks different is stripped away given to Titans and Hunters. Arc Warlocks have 1 unique ability that feels powerful and that’s the new slide melee, and even then in my experience that only feels powerful in PvP. Besides that it feels like their purpose anywhere else is to be a battery. I would also like to point out that your definition of how Chaos Reach is supposed to be used: 1) is not very effective on console bc of the slow sensitivity 2) making it so Arc warlocks have 2 roaming supers In my experience, roaming supers are only ever used in endgame PvE to reap the benefits from abilities rather than the super, which Arc Warlocks are also lacking in.
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Edited by The Hermit IX: 11/4/2022 12:44:32 PMLol yeah it is. It was amazing when it was released. Chaos Reach was a high damage super. As always when people cry they nerfed it into the ground. It’s unusable. Only Titans and Hunters should have high damage supers? Please.
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(Mate, Chaos reach was never nerfed in PvE)
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Edited by The Hermit IX: 11/4/2022 1:13:35 PMGeo mags were part of that. It was a viable choice other than Dawn Blade. Chaos Reach was specifically nerfed again and they listed PVP as why in the patch notes when they did it. They did so many negative things to it and yes it made it unusable in both PVE and PVP. It’s a shell of its former self and anyone that uses it knows how badly the nerfs hit it.
