[quote] On paper, I don't think SMGs are broken. They have a small window where they dominate. Over 25 meters, almost every ranged weapon counters an SMG. Under 15 meters, sidearms and (some) Fusions counter smgs. Under 9 meters, shotguns counter SMGs. Personally, I think that leaves a lot of space to take advantage of. If you nerf the range on SMGs anymore, then sidearms begin to encroach on them. The TTK of SMGs is good for a primary, but it is not unique. The fastest TTK on an SMG is 0.67s (Immortal with Target Lock). That's the same TTK as Messenger, and it's slower than the TTK of several sidearms and The Last Word. The TTK of Unending Tempest with Target Lock is 0.7s. The TTK of Shayuras is 0.8s. At 0.8s, MANY weapons kill faster. Every sidearm kills faster. If you want me to believe that SMGs need a nerf, then you need to address the facts of the matter. SMGs have around 10 meters where they are dominant, and they don't have a uniquely fast TTK. So what makes them so menacing? Also, I don't believe things should be balanced around Rumble. Rumble is too unique to be representative of PVP as a whole. Even if SMGs are the meta in Rumble, I fail to see why they should be nerfed in something like Control or Trials.[/quote] If they dominate Rumble for months at a time, does that not indicate that the individuals running them have the edge in most 1 to 1 fights? If they consistently kill faster than every other weapon type, not just ttk, the rate at which the weapon gets kills vs the next, how much faster? Is it within reason? How much do they out pace weapons that might require peeking, distance, precision? Those take time as well. Not everything is the perfect set of conditions for a 3 tap or long distance shots for scouts or pulses. Sure other weapon combinations are better choices in a Control and Trials. Those things play very differently and strategy comes into play. Team shots come into play. Weapon to weapon, are they ok? [u]I'm not saying someone with precision weapons can't outplay them.[/u] Certainly Thorn, Rose, and Ace do fine for themselves in the proper hands, but [b]Subs error on the side of being free at unreasonable distances at times [/b][b]when considering the myriad of factors affecting Destiny outside of its performance [u]on paper[/u]. [/b] Some Subs comfortably shoot too far, for a very short ttk with very little required of the wielder. Even if ttk is comparable to a long range pulse, you can just not engage that lane. The Sub can just chase down the next person within 24m with little investment while the optimal strategy for that pulse is to stand 30m+ back for a specific engagement. They are limited in giving themselves the highest chance of success if to maintain a similar pace of kills when considering only primary interactions. Their benefit comes from standing back and running away. Giving up ground. Which may be exactly what you need in Comp, Trials, or Control. They may do great, but Rumble reveals how much easier it is to just blaze ahead and around with a Sub. Again, I don't want them butchered. How does Unending Tempest rack up so well when it's you against the world. I see otherwise weak players beat very capable and experienced players with these in their hands. There's little penalization for body shots because of some perk combos and potential stat distributions on the mentioned guns. [b]When you start adding over shields and p2p SBMM prefired peekers advantage or simply using a movement exotic[/b] to increase slide speed and you're making places on the maps [b]entirely free[/b]. SMGs track hard for an Automatic weapon class. Autos are harsh for a different reason, but don't track as hard as Subs when both are used in their appropriate range. SMG hardly punish your for missing or the occasional body shots where others ttk sky rocket. They flinch hard cause of their fire rate. With the low player population, the latency between players is very apparent in some games. This makes for some wonky scenarios in certain gun fights where the gap to retaliate against a Sub is null and void. It's not about an unwillingness to adapt or that it they can't be countered played correctly. Certainly if you put distance between you and peek or you have a side arm you can do something, on paper. Most of the maps are designed to make them the ideal choice in this current meta. They are good for countering apes, as they are designed to be. And some also map while often being an exceedingly strong aping primary themselves. [u]I don't want them to not have a place in the Meta.[/u] Just have more recoil or damage fall off in PvP sooner so they have to use proper movement and positioning to move up to Auto and Hand cannons and continue to steer clear of Side Arms. Punished in the way you are punished if you're sloppy rushing with other things. Who Is using Subs Most? What is the skill floor/ceiling on these things depending on the caliber of Guardian wielding them? What is their win rate when they have them? HOW FAST are the majority getting their kills over other weapons types in a Rumble setting on those games where they win? In a game where there's only a few Subs, how often are those the top 3 players in the lobby? In the end, the Devs will make their own decisions of course.