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1/17/2022 3:32:06 PM
43
Yes.
… and I don’t understand why Bungie insists on keeping them painfully underpowered.
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I still say basically they should all do what the dmt does, repeated strikes to the same body pay increases damage ie degrades armor. In fact i would be good with most weapons doing this and different weapons doing it at different rates based on effective range and other standpoints. You don't get hit twice in the armored helmet and take the same amount of damage, the first gives you a concussion, the second gives you brain damage and after that it's a question of how much of your brain is hamburger, even if the bullets don't penetrate.
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Overly complicated. First that's DMTs exotic perk. But the fact that you want it is evidence that other scouts are badly underpowered from a damage stand point. They just need to be nerfed to counter Bungie's intention to inflict a damage penalty for fighting from range, despite the fact that end-game content promotes and rewards doing just that.
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Then they need to do that I've been suggesting for months and implement variable zoom scopes and offset sights to make scouts effective at variable ranges, as well as massively increased flinch.
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I think Bungie just needs to seperate the PVE and PVP sandboxes. The massive difference in size between the PVE and PVP arenas, and the different agendas and expectations for the two sandboxes leads to a lot of decisions that don't make any sense. ...and PVE usually gets the short end of that stick.
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People need to stop giving them an easy out on pve by pretending it's because of pvp. They disabled an exotic for over a month because it could possibly give free ammo in pve. Things are bad in pve because bungie deliberately chooses for them to be that way. Hell rather than rebalance their conventional (white ammo) weapons because you could predictably run out of white ammo because everything sponges up SO MUCH DAMAGE, they just gave you infinite white ammo so you'd stop running out after three weeks of plinking the same target. Regular weapon damage is horrifically under powered across all weapon types and is that way by design, not due to pvp. If people are fine with that because "we have to try hard bruh, so hard bruh, we have to try soooo hard or some pleb may have fun or something" then that's fine. But don't kid your self that pve is badly balanced because pve, it's a deliberate choice that it's bad.
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Because if they’re strong they trivialize endgame content. Bungie’s said multiple times that increasing scout rifle damage is hard because of Infinite ammo and being able to outrange ads and just plink away at their health from outside their range. Idk, I’d like to see one for all primaries. If I had to pick one though, I’d rather see Autos, Pulses, and Sidearms see buffs first.
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They don’t trivialize it. People are simply playing in the way that the game design promotes and rewards. If you make the play space so lethal, that you can’t survive in the open, smart people will fight from cover. If you make it suicidally stupid, to get close to enemies, smart people will fight from range. This is not an issue with SRs being overpowered. This is the predictable result of the “punishing” approach to difficulty that Bungie has chosen to embrace. It “Mashes a Game Flat”. That is it narrows viable options to the point the game becomes one-dimensional: to hide behind cover and plink at enemies from range. Because trying to play any other way dramatically reduces your odds of success.
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Edited by neonsox42: 1/18/2022 6:09:25 PMYep. Scouts aren’t OP. They’re actually in a really good spot right now with Handcannons and Bows. The other three primary types need help in endgame content. That was more my point. In the relative scheme of things scouts are actually pretty good. I’d be all for Bungie toning down the damage output and health or enemies in GMs and even master level content if they added more extensive modifiers. Imagine this: You go into Lake of Shadows there’s even more blight goo and actual blights everywhere that you need to destroy to progress. Forcing you out of cover and into close combat more frequently. Or Glassway, if instead of just having crazy beefy enemies, the pathways in the interior would occasionally become blocked off trapping you in or out. Maybe also make enemies standing near Wyverns become shielded like Servitors, but the shield goes away when you expose their weak point. There’s a lot that they could do that I’d prefer over just the damage scalar we have now, but it’s a lot easier for them to implement. This goes same for Master VoG. What if instead of just enemy damage it was more mechanics?
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Oh boy, another hand canon user trying to say scouts are in a good spot and so are hand canons except for the fact that hand canons should never be able to beat scouts outside 30m yet they do and do fairly easily. Shotguns and hand canons are the two most used weapons by a long shot in pvp because they take the least skill to rack up a lot of kills.
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[quote]Yep. Scouts aren’t OP. They’re actually in a really good spot right now with Handcannons and Bows.[/quote] If they're optimally rolled and modded? Sure. But the problem is Weapons that don't have either some sort of damage perk or damage mod (minor, major) still feel underpowered and not really usable. [quote]There’s a lot that they could do that I’d prefer over just the damage scalar we have now, but it’s a lot easier for them to implement. This goes same for Master VoG. What if instead of just enemy damage it was more mechanics?[/quote] That's the issue in a nutshell. Its easier to make content punishing (stacking multipliers everywhere, and making enemies bullet spongets) than it is to make content strategically or mechanically challenging.
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Punishing content isn’t a bad thing. Not everything needs to be easy. They’ve added mechanically challenging things to the game and people hate them openly and refuse to do them, find ways around the mechanic even if it’s a really well made one, or complain none stop over a super simple mechanic with many ways to interact with it. Plus people are still to brain dead to throw a ball so idk what people actually expect. We’ve had the scouts are the default in end game stuff and it was boring, at least with there being an option of “do I want damage or safety” there’s a niche you can make a choice over.
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Punishing content in the abstract is not a bad thing, even though I don’t care for those kinds of games It is a bad thing in the case of Destiny because this game isn’t designed to be played that way, and it’s not what the vast majority of people who are drawn to power-fantasy games want or expect. This is not a “test your skill” game… and it lacks vital features that allow games like a Dark Souls or Sekiro to be less rage-inducing. But Bungie just keeps stubbornly driving their heels in, despite the negative feedback they’re getting. [i]Do you think that it’s a coincidence that Bungie is bribing us with double nightfall rewards this week given which strike is the nightfall?[/i] Only double rewards STILL isn’t enough to get me to put up with it. No way.
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“Isn’t designed to be played that way” Can’t really make that claim if you don’t like punishing content “Not “a test your skill” game” What features does it lack? A lot of the master level content isn’t at all rage inducing, it might be to the people outside the bubble of those it’s made for but that doesn’t mean it’s missing something. Honestly master contents a lot of fun, I really enjoyed going for the fatebreaker seal and doing the challenges and the groups I did it with all had a blast too, one of the highlights in raiding these past years for me. “Despite negative feedback” If you make a fancy men’s dress shoe and try to run a marathon in it, can you really complain about it not being a great running shoe? Harder content is end game stuff, you need to be geared up and prepared for what your doing and a lot of that bad feedback, at least from what I’ve seen, comes from players who clearly aren’t the intended audience. They go in underleveled, unprepared, complain about not having friends or the time and that it’s all bungies fault they can’t complete the content those who it’s made for walk all over. No ones bribing you to do anything, it’s a harder strike that takes longer to run. Doubling the drops one could argue is them respecting players time more. But they’ve done it on easy nightfalls people would have grinded anyways. You’ve clearly said you don’t like punishing content, you aren’t part of that contents audience so you not being lulled into it doesn’t surprise me. Cod could have perpetual double xp weekends, I still wouldn’t touch it
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1. Actually I can. Just because I said that I don't like it, doesn't mean that I have no experience. In fact I have quite a bit. 2. The issue isn't features. The issue is the genre of the game, and the design intentions and player expectations that go with it. GAMES HAVE RULES. The problem is that Bungie is new to these kinds of games, and they think they can rewrite the rules of power-fantasy games whenever they want in a spirit of "innovation". But creativity doesn't work that way. You have first KNOW the rules, and understand WHY they are rules....before you've mastered them enough to know which ones you can bend, or break....and where you can break them...in interesting and entertaining ways. Otherwise you just have chaos. To the uninitiated, jazz just looks like you have musicians just standing up there and playing whatever pops into their head. There is an element of that...but there is a-blam!- upon structure. There are agreed upon RULES of rhythm, harmony, note placement, accents and melodic structure that you have to obey. Otherwise the music doesn't sound right. It doesn't sound like jazz....and people with trained ears will call you on it. Its the same here. Bungie keeps doing things to this game that break the rules of power-fantasy games...and it doesn't FEEL right to people who are used to playing them (the vast majority of the player base). Over the years, of having listened to dozens of hours of interviews given by Bungie devs it is clear that they are doing this out of either a lack of understanding of these rules....or an out-and-out lack of respect for them. Which is why Bungie finds themselves having to try to bribe the player base with double rewards in an effort to BRIBE us to play one of the most hated strikes in the game right now. Hated because it is one of the most punishing. Some people enjoy that kindof content.....but most dont'....and the vast majority of power-fantasy gamers don't.
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1- personally I don’t consider dipping a toe “experience” with end game content. 2 - you specifically said “it lacks vital features” so please tell me what these are. 3 - well what are these rules to making good end game content, content you’ll be interacting with for weeks - monthes. 4 - depending on the situation, that can be all jazz is, and rock, and country, and rap…. There aren’t any hard rules to music. There are guidelines to making proper music but they are broken and bent all the time, an example could be edm or dubstep or weird remixed songs that have so many random noises you’d never think they sound good, but people still enjoy it. There aren’t You reference these rules so again please explain them instead of referencing them as tho there’s a how too for dummies on them. 5- I don’t think they are bribing anyone, a common complaint the game has gotten over the years is that it doesn’t respect players time. People often feel and have felt that a challenging activity clear should reward loot worthy of the investment. An argument I don’t think many would disagree with. I see double loot drops as a “hey we know this nightfalls rough so here’s double drops” to address the investment/reward ratio. 6 - so just because there’s a minority that simple wants a challenge it’s a bad idea to make it? There isn’t even much master level content, we have next to nothing in that department while 95% of the game sits in that power fantasy spot you speak of so I really don’t get the complaint that it’s bad when there’s so little of it and nothing in the game requires you to do it anyways.
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ROFL. I’ve been gaming longer than most of you have been on this Earth. Long enough to see gaming turn from a solitary pursuit to an online and social one…. …and with all the toxicity and ego that go along with the striving for status withi-blam!-. Punishing content is a concept as old as gaming. It started in arcades with the original quarter-snatchers, whose goal was to end your play session as quickly as possible so that you (or someone else) feeds it another quarter. It the moved on to the early home games because storage media and computing power limited the size of games, and making a game punishing was an easy way to extend play (Cuphead uses this). Then with the internet and cheap mass storage, the issue was no longer limits to the size of games. It was developer ability to keep up with consumption as the notion of the “hardcore” gamer who played for hours everyday began to emerge. So the whole notion that I’ve only “dipped a toe” in difficult gaming content or this game’s limite and repetitive approach to content design is my only experience? Is…to put it politely…is off by a curvature of the Earth.
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I was referring to endgame experience in this game. That which you have not a lot of. I’m aware of punishing contents history and how it was used, thing is some people actually liked it. Some people require some brain activity to have fun. You still haven’t explained what features destiny is lacking as well as these rules you reference so again let’s hear them. “I’ve been gaming longer than most of you have been on this earth” yeah? Then why aren’t you positive in crucible….
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I have explained on multiple occasions. Rules of power-fantasy games. 1. Power is a reward, not a problem. 2. Feeling powerful and the game becoming easier as players progress is not a bug or a problem. It’s the entire point of all of this. 3. Difficulty is through mechanics and strategic choices (builds). Not by making the player feel week. Especially at end-game. 4. You can’t keep giving player power forever. At some point you have to retire power from the game (sunset) so you can give the player power back elsewhere. Games that are punishing are almost always designed to severely punish mistakes, but also give players a skill-based way to avoid or mitigate the damage. Either with a roll/ dodge or a parrying an incoming attack. So combat becomes dependent upon your ability to learn/recognize attack sequences and respond correctly. Destiny has none of these mechanics. Enemies spam attacks and abilities with no cooldowns, and the only range of responses are Hide (cover); Facetank (Well/Ward/Rifts/ Barricades); or Avoid (invisibility). Otherwise you are looking at unavoidable damage. Which is why The Corrupted nightfall is one of the most universally hated experiences in the history of the game… …and why the vast majority of the palates base dislikes it whenever Bungie goes down this road. Bungie presses the issue, and the community responds by not playing it. Then Bungie tries to bribe or arm twist their way past community resistance.
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Rule 1 we have examples of that not holding true in destiny. Rule 2 destiny follows that pretty well actually, the more knowledgeable you are about the game and it’s mods/gear the more powerful you become Rule 3 we have examples of this not being true in destiny, to the point where it’s actually frustrating that people always claim they want X only to avoid X or cheese past it. Rule 4 destiny have followed that pretty well honestly, they’ve evolved where players power comes from so strongly the game is completely different from what it once was on top of our power being orders of magnitude ahead of where we started We have more ways to interact with strong enemies, be it defensive builds, offensive builds, blocking damage with swords (once used to tank a wipe mechanic) or responding to what’s coming at you with a supers or chaining supers. We also have stasis that bends over strong enemies so aggressively you can have a dance party in the open in gms if you setup your builds properly before the verity’s brow change. I would like to see enemy races fight in a less spammy way though and I don’t think you’d find many that argue this, cabal executing complicated strategies would be awesome, or jive being even more aggressive, vex being tricksy in new ways but we did see the scorn dig tunnels to kills us lol Unavoidable damage sucks and I agree is part of a poorly tuned fight, but they can’t really invest a lot of resources into content so few people play and interact with. Just isn’t financially worth it. I still don’t think it’s a bribe, we’ve had the complaint of players time not being respected as far back as year 1 of destiny if I’m remembering correctly. But I think the community dislikes end game content more because they’re entitled and you see examples of this in trials and raid complaint posts, gaming culture has changed from “I earned this” to “I deserve this” and that creates a really boring gameplay loop where nothings remotely challenging and the game becomes boring super fast, an issue I believe we have an example of too
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Destiny is not and never has been a well-designed RPG. So you can’t use Destiny as proof of itself.
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Edited by Skullshot: 1/19/2022 9:12:20 PMDestiny’s a goofy hybrid of a bunch of crap. You could argue it’s almost it’s own genre or one that few games sit in therefore having its own rules. Why can’t you use proof from the game itself as proof a rule doesn’t work?
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I would say it is its own genre. One that Bungie is fumbling around in the dark writing the rules as they go. But when you are creating something that is a hybrid you have respect the rules of the genres that you are borrowing from. You can’t claim to be a FPS…and then give shotguns infinite range just because you think “it’ll be cool.” Destiny is a power-fantasy game during its core game play. You can’t change what kind of game it is at end- game just because it’s cool. People are going to get mad if they grind for power, only to have it taken away because now the game is a “skill game”. Massive tried that in The Division 1 and it was a disaster. Such a disaster that people called its end-game a “bait-and-switch” because they game played completely differently…and not in a good way. Bungie keeps making this mistake over and over and keeps ignoring the negative feedback they get when they try to make Destiny stop being a power-fantasy game and be something else
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Some fps games have a multiplayer tuned shotgun range, others better respect that they have substantially more range, it’s game dependent and not a rule anywhere. Having most of the game be mechanically brain dead and the end game mechanically demanding would be a much larger difference, mechanics typically don’t go over well in this community and we have had a number of examples too. People say combat difficulty is lazy then cheese riven, people still can’t throw the damn ball in corrupted, people struggle with champions, people hated spire, people generally disliked oryx if I’m remembering correctly and the main reasons were it’s all mechanics and next to no fighting. But honestly you could make the argument destiny’s core gameplay is shooting more than a power fantasy, something you do heavily in all places in the game. I can’t really speak on the division, I played it up to level 29 at launch and was so -blam!- bored I just stopped playing and completely forgot about it until a friend wanted to try it years later. Yeah I call bull largely because witch queens campaign is launching with difficulty options, probably to please people who want a bit of a challenge because the bots certainly aren’t asking for that. We’ve also been told we’re getting a more regular flow of end game content, specifically dungeons, which up to this point have had very light mechanics. I’m not saying I always prefer combat difficulty but it’s substantially more doable given bungies status, it can piggy back off existing content, it gives end game players some of what they’re looking for which is to be challenged, master mode stuff forces you to approach the game differently, to think more about how you do things and strategize instead of bulldoze through content. It does the job very well
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Not going down that rabbit hole…. When people pay to play baseball, it’s not “cool” to try to get them to play cricket instead. It’s disrespectful.
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Mechanic heavy end game would be a larger difference anyways. Community’s to crap at the game to handle it, bungie doesn’t have the resources to make it happen, and it literally goes along with your argument that the latter of the game and the end game shouldn’t be too different.
